V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 26, 2014 Author Share Posted August 26, 2014 Ah... enlightened debate. This is what sets humans apart from the monkeys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Linus controls the kernel and systemd has nothing to do with that. I do not think there is a way to take Linux from Linus. No, but it controls pretty much all that interacts with the kernel. That is nearly as good if not better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 No, but it controls pretty much all that interacts with the kernel. That is nearly as good if not better. So did init.... I just do not see why everyone is making a big deal out of it. It controls your boot and services just as init did. Just in a faster, more efficient manner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Irregardless, systemd is here to stay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Ugh! Good article link though, Fran. systemd wants to control most, if not all, of the fundamental functional aspects of a Linux system -- from authentication to mounting shares to network configuration to syslog to cron. It wants to do so as essentially a monolithic entity that obscures what's happening behind the scenes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cluttermagnet Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Linus controls the kernel and systemd has nothing to do with that. I do not think there is a way to take Linux from Linus. That is truly a relief to know, Josh. I just hope that when the time comes, someone is ready to fill his shoes. I'm grateful to him and all the others who labored so long in that garden. It's nice to have choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 (edited) Yes, but this topic is about Systemd. If you wish to continue the topic about words in the English Language go here. Edited August 27, 2014 by LilBambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 27, 2014 Share Posted August 27, 2014 Yes, but this topic is about Systemd. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reynaldo Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) There was a rant with Linus and some systemd developer that f#$( up something and didnt want to fix it up.. it was months ago. Anyway, the old linux folks have a point about removing the choices from the user, hey its faster but not everyone wants to pay the price to be faster and its quite obvious that systemd was proposed by the bigs (Redhat) and its not quite good to have a free world and then re route the free world through a mandatory system like systemd and remove some of your freedom with all the dependencies that are relying on systemd. Edited August 28, 2014 by Reynaldo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saturnian Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 "This page documents the position statement of those who think that Debian should adopt systemd as the default init system." https://wiki.debian....tsystem/systemd Worth taking a look at. My feeling is that developers of these distros that have gone over to systemd (see: https://en.wikipedia...ystemd#Adoption) know a lot more about it than most people who are commenting all over the internet. They've carefully considered the pros and cons, and they've decided to go with it. I figure that they know what they're doing. systemd has mostly been a non-issue for me here in Arch, openSUSE, and Sabayon. Even Debian's about to jump in. That's good enough for me. systemd ftw. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Debian did the same thing with PulseAudio on Debian making it default. And sadly Skype requires you use PulseAudio since their newest and only supported version. I don't use Skype on my Debian computer so I remove PulseAudio because it sucks and use Alsa. Maybe in time it will be better but right now it sucks as bad as Alsa did when it first started. Now Alsa is mature and worth using. Can't do that with systemd though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) By the way, the reason we left Redhat, actually Fedora, after it split Redhat/Fedora, back when we moved to Debian, was Fedora's systemd adoption. Edited August 28, 2014 by LilBambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Odd I do not have pulse installed but have Skype installed. I do not use Skype much anymore due to Microsoft acquiring them. I mainly use google hangouts is much easier and doesn't require a separate app to use but Skype does work without pulseaudio (on Arch anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 You likely already have a 'newer' version that doesn't require pulse audio. On Debian when Jim went from the old 7 yr old Skype to the current Debian pkg for Skype, it was required on Debian. In addition to systemd and PulseAudio, other things that we initially hated but eventually got used to (doesn't mean we like it) are; UDEV and HAL. We will see how this one turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Yeah probably so: comhack@Cerberus ~ % pacman -Qi skype| grep Version Version : 4.3.0.37-3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 There was a rant with Linus and some systemd developer that f#$( up something and didnt want to fix it up.. it was months ago. Anyway, the old linux folks have a point about removing the choices from the user, hey its faster but not everyone wants to pay the price to be faster and its quite obvious that systemd was proposed by the bigs (Redhat) and its not quite good to have a free world and then re route the free world through a mandatory system like systemd and remove some of your freedom with all the dependencies that are relying on systemd. Here a few links about that and this issue in particular:(note that not all these are anti systemd)https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/4/2/420 http://bbs.archbang.org/viewtopic.php?pid=26950 http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?98458-Linux-Kernel-Developers-Fed-Up-With-Ridiculous-Bugs-In-Systemd/page5 http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-7518002.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Skype for Linux supports the PulseAudio and ALSA sound systems. As of version 4.3, the ALSA sound system is no longer supported without PulseAudio. That is from this Skype adjusting sound page on Linux. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) I found it interesting that in the Results of the 2013 /r/Linux Distro Survey although on the Desktop Debian is about 4th at (8.63%) in that survey, it has moved to 1st on servers at (29.78%) above the usual suspects. Edited August 28, 2014 by LilBambi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 That is from this Skype adjusting sound page on Linux. That is weird as I have version 4.3.0.37-3 installed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 I know. Go figure...ArchLinux likely made a change to it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
securitybreach Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Nah, Arch does not patch or change applications and just uses the upstream source: The Arch Linux system places precedence upon elegance of design as well as clean, correct, simple code, rather than unnecessary patching, automation, eye candy or "newbie-friendliness." Software patches are therefore kept to an absolute minimum; ideally, never. Simple design and implementation shall always trump simple user interface. https://wiki.archlin...hp/The_Arch_Way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share Posted August 28, 2014 Ever heard the name Lennart Poettering? Yeah, that's the fellow who, along with Kay Sievers, started systemd. Oddly enough, Poettering, again along with others, is a developer of PulseAudio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 (edited) I found it interesting that in the Results of the 2013 /r/Linux Distro Survey although on the Desktop Debian is about 4th at (8.63%) in that survey, it has moved to 1st on servers at (29.78%) above the usual suspects. My last server I switched from RH/CentOS to Debian mainly because Debian makes it simple to update distro level. Sure enough, the move from Squeezy to Whiskey was easier and smoother than updating Centos 5 to 5.7 and I wouldn't even try updating CentoOS5 to 6 Does IBM use Debian ? http://www-03.ibm.com/linux/ Edited August 28, 2014 by crp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 That would be Wheezy. (not Whiskey) I thought IBM used/uses RHEL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raymac46 Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 No matter what software Lennart Poettering develops, he'll always have his name associated with Pulse Audio and that can't be a good thing for his marketing folks. Sort of like having the scientist who developed New Coke come up with an Ebola vaccine. Wanna try it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Ever heard the name Lennart Poettering? Yeah, that's the fellow who, along with Kay Sievers, started systemd. Oddly enough, Poettering, again along with others, is a developer of PulseAudio. Ah, joy...right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 28, 2014 Share Posted August 28, 2014 Truthfully, I really hope pulse audio and systemd work out especially since everyone is falling in with these guys. I also hope that there are some really good diverse developers on those teams. I think one of my concerns is in part about DRM. Between Pulse Audio and Systemd which will be interfacing with everything else including the video pathways, DRM could very easily take over our Linux pathways like it does with Windows and I assume Macs too. Just something to think about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Ah, joy...right? is this issue still a problem? If so, I would try to avoid systemd even more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted August 29, 2014 Share Posted August 29, 2014 Last I heard, it has not been fixed, but because PulseAudio sucked so badly, I removed it from Debian and I am using Alsa instead. I don't care that Skype no longer supports Alsa. I just won't install it on my Debian computer. Who needs Skype anyway. I would prefer having sound that works right like it does with Alsa; or even OSS. Sure there are many more features in PulseAudio but if it doesn't work right, who cares. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted August 29, 2014 Author Share Posted August 29, 2014 In all fairness to Lennart Poettering, the man is an accomplished developer. He has contributed much to his employer, Redhat, and also to the GNU/Linux - Open Source community in general. I just don't want anything I posted here to be misconstrued as a witch hunt against a talented individual, regardless of his associations with a couple pieces of software of which I'm not too fond; particularly PulseAudio... cuz it really is do-do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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