ross549 Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 This is not the first time I've heard this and the following article takes some leaps of deduction to come to their conclusion. http://rt.com/usa/nsa-cell-phone-tracking-436 I don't get it. I don't care that my cell phone is tracked while its on. That's easy. I don't care that a phone could be turned into a remote microphone. That's simply software. I've been on deployments where my phone was off for weeks at a time. The battery level DID NOT DROP, meaning the phone did not attempt to "reach out" to find a tower that was not there. I've also left my phone in Airplane mode while out to sea as well, and even though the battery level dropped, it was at a drastically reduced rate since the radio in the phone was off. So, what am missing? Am I nuts? Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 This is not the first time I've heard this and the following article takes some leaps of deduction to come to their conclusion. http://rt.com/usa/ns...ne-tracking-436 I don't get it. I don't care that my cell phone is tracked while its on. That's easy. I don't care that a phone could be turned into a remote microphone. That's simply software. I've been on deployments where my phone was off for weeks at a time. The battery level DID NOT DROP, meaning the phone did not attempt to "reach out" to find a tower that was not there. I've also left my phone in Airplane mode while out to sea as well, and even though the battery level dropped, it was at a drastically reduced rate since the radio in the phone was off. So, what am missing? Am I nuts? Adam You are probably missing an element, Sn .Speaking to your point, that is not my experience with cellphone batteries. If I take the battery out , it easily lasts 2 weeks. If I leave it in the phone and off - totally depleted within 2 weeks. My phone doesn't have an Airplane mode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hello, Functionality greatly depends upon the phone in question. I suspect this is one area where feature phones and dumb phones have an advantage over smartphones. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted July 25, 2013 Author Share Posted July 25, 2013 So can we say that some phones may not be fully powered down despite being off? The definition of off is very important in this situation. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Apparently not particularly in the case of smart phones with the battery still in and I think that is key. Sadly the iPhone can't have the battery removed, so I wonder if they have made special allowances so when it is OFF it truly is off even though it still has a battery that can't be removed? I would like to think so since of course we both use iPhones, but who knows...and Apple is so tight lipped that unless they see a reason to say, they won't, especially if that it is true that it is not truly off in that sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 When I disconnect my phone, it's OFF! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 When I disconnect my phone, it's OFF! You forgot the listening device hidden in the base runs on batteries when there is no connection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 You forgot the listening device hidden in the base runs on batteries when there is no connection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hello, My understanding is that with the current generations of smart phones it is more like they are going into a "log off and go into a deep sleep" mode, versus being truly off. An example of this is my BlackBerry Bold 9600. When I turn it "off" and then turn it back "on," it boots up in under 30 seconds. When I turn it "off" and then pull the battery, it takes several minutes for it to reboot; it verifies all of the software and digital certificates, etc. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hello, My understanding is that with the current generations of smart phones it is more like they are going into a "log off and go into a deep sleep" mode, versus being truly off. An example of this is my BlackBerry Bold 9600. When I turn it "off" and then turn it back "on," it boots up in under 30 seconds. When I turn it "off" and then pull the battery, it takes several minutes for it to reboot; it verifies all of the software and digital certificates, etc. Regards,Aryeh Goretsky and not being totally off but with some connectivity makes dialing 911 that much faster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted July 26, 2013 Author Share Posted July 26, 2013 Hello, My understanding is that with the current generations of smart phones it is more like they are going into a "log off and go into a deep sleep" mode, versus being truly off. An example of this is my BlackBerry Bold 9600. When I turn it "off" and then turn it back "on," it boots up in under 30 seconds. When I turn it "off" and then pull the battery, it takes several minutes for it to reboot; it verifies all of the software and digital certificates, etc. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky When doing repairs on a couple iPhones that caused me to remove the battery, I noticed no difference in boot time than the normal one. I wonder if there is something going on differently in the Blackberry device. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Yes, apparently, it does fully shuts down when you take out the battery. hehehe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted July 27, 2013 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Hello, It goes through a process of verifying the software on the device is intact on a cold boot. Regards, Aryeh Goretsky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 I can understand a remote wipe command that waits until the phone comes back online until it activates and wipes the device. I, however, cannot comprehend a device that is powered off being able to transmit data. In my decade-plus years of experience as an electronic repair guy.... this flies int eh face of everything I know. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 There are RFID readers everywhere, Adam. If your cell has an RFID chip in it, data can be read off of it anytime even with the phone completely powered off. That being said, though, the discussion here isn't about phones transmitting data when they are powered off. It's about whether the devices are REALLY powered off when you turn them off or remove the battery. Is there another battery in there somewhere? Is the LCD display doubling as a solar power source? That technology does exist, I believe. Anyway, what are we going to discuss next? UFOs? Area 51? Who really killed Kennedy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ross549 Posted July 28, 2013 Author Share Posted July 28, 2013 I know my iPhone 5 does not have an RFID chip. Exactly, though. I have some experience with phones being "off" for a very long time (deployments). The battery does *not* drop in power when it is completely powered off, indication the phone is in an inert state. I've seen these allegations of phones being able to be remotely activated, and that simply requires a connection of some sort to send a command or have the phone be listening for such a command. This functionality would *require* power of some sort. Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 28, 2013 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Some debate and other interesting articles that you've probably seen already... http://security.stac...ned-on-remotely http://abcnews.go.co...an_you_hear_me/ http://news.cnet.com...29-6140191.html By the way, any chemical battery will lose stored potential even when not connected to any device. The internal chemical reaction that allows storage of potential continues, albeit at a much slower rate, even when there is no load on the battery. I know my iPhone 5 does not have an RFID chip. Also, how do you know this for sure? Do you know the function of every small surface mounted component on that cell phone's mobo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goretsky Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Hello, Don't think of it as being truly off, but in a kind oif deep sleep or hibernation mode. Smartphones essentially have two separate computers running two operating systems in them (at least). One side is the one which gets mentioned in all the reviews, and is the ARM or MIPS or whatever-based CPU and GPU that has a few hundred MB to 1-2 GB of RAM to run its operating system in, and several more GB of RAM for storage (apps, caching web pages, etc). The other side is the baseband CPU which runs the various radios (3G, f4G, Bluetooth, NFC, Wi-Fi). It may (or may not) also be involved in controlling the LEDs (if there are any) and device syncs via USB. I would imagine it is the latter which typically "beacons" the nearest cell phone masts in order to get a quick signal when you turn the device back "on." Regards, Aryeh Goretsky I can understand a remote wipe command that waits until the phone comes back online until it activates and wipes the device. I, however, cannot comprehend a device that is powered off being able to transmit data. In my decade-plus years of experience as an electronic repair guy.... this flies int eh face of everything I know. Adam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burninbush Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 (edited) what with recent revelations about what the no such is doing, it wouldn't surprise me that cells mfg in the past years have the capability to: remote turn on track when off every business that supplies email to employees has the ability to remote wipe any users phone - so why wouldn't the higher power be able to likewise track when off? after all, nics have had the ability to start their pc from stone cold off for decades (read up on the "magic packet" if you've never heard such.) Well, that last [NIC wakeup] is only possible because modern pc's don't fully shut off power when the power light goes out. Unplug it at the wall and then it won't do a NIC wakeup. By which I mean, the chip's MAC will not appear on the network unless it has power, even though the RJ45 is still attached. If the phone with battery removed functions in any active way, then it has another hidden power source inside it. RFID chips are passive, but you'd have to physically have the phone in the presence of a reader device for that to work. Did someone up the thread mention a Faraday cage? Just a metal shield of any sort would be good enough to block RF of any kind, battery in or out. Think tinfoil hat. Edited July 29, 2013 by burninbush 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Excellent point, burninbush. Even TVs for years have not been turning off completely. It's fast to turn on but at a power cost and does also often make them more fragile and in need of power regulation (AVR - Automatic Voltage Regulation or Line Conditioning) during thunderstorm seasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 The electric companies world wide have been feeding like starving piranha ever since the advent of electrical vampires like the TVs you mention, Fran. They LOVE 'em! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Yes, I know! I don't love that it keeps that meter running! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crp Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 Excellent point, burninbush. Even TVs for years have not been turning off completely. It's fast to turn on but at a power cost and does also often make them more fragile and in need of power regulation (AVR - Automatic Voltage Regulation or Line Conditioning) during thunderstorm seasons. I tried disconnecting my TV entirely. Not worth it. First because of the convenience of the TV being ready much quicker . But I also couldn't find any saving of energy. The time energy it took to reconfigure itself was more than the time energy of the disconnect time. So unless I'm going to not be using it at all for a few days, I live it plugged in now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 I have killed most of my electrical vampires, but the TVs stay on. I like being able to use the remote to turn them on. Frugality occasionally gets trumped by laziness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LilBambi Posted July 29, 2013 Share Posted July 29, 2013 So true. Ours stay on too (TVs). But gotta bend some ... we have water heater on/off as needed, same with A/C. But computers and TVs...not so much... BUT and this is a big but. We unplug them during electrical storms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V.T. Eric Layton Posted July 30, 2013 Share Posted July 30, 2013 My water heater is on a timer. My computers get completely disconnected from power when not in use. Don't have much else around here in the gadget/vampire department to worry about. I love my $65/month electric bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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