Woe is Linux. Woe is Me

[Peachy]

Ever the curmudgeon, Dvorak opines that the PC revolution was a fad and that users really like cloud computing. Mind you he was commenting on Mark Shuttleworth's pronouncement last week that desktop Linux will never supplant Windows and we might as well offer no more resistance to iOS and Android because that's where the desktop is supposedly headed.

 

So, is Dvorak right that the biggest problem with Linux is that Linux users are lousy marketers we didn't pay enough attention to promoting Linux with splashy ads? Well, there's two problems with that argument from my perspective: 1) it's not the job of Linux users to be marketers, and 2) RedHat and Novell should take the blame for not doing the marketing. On the first group, I can only speak for myself, but I have only so many hours in the day to evangelize Linux on the desktop. On the second group, they neglected the desktop because they were so focused on the server room and large enterprises.

 

Shuttleworth throwing in the towel only highlights the fact that one billionaire alone cannot hope to take on Microsoft because Redmond was too entrenched. It would have required the combined efforts of RedHat and Novell and Novell was castrated because of its deal with Microsoft back in 2006.

 

Linux as a brand couldn't compete against Windows because there was no consensus on how to wage the battle to win the war.

[sunrat]

I don't see why so many articles are written saying Linux has to compete with anything. It misses the point. Does Ferrari compete with Ford?

[crp]

I don't see why so many articles are written saying Linux has to compete with anything. It misses the point. Does Ferrari compete with Ford?

I blame Ubuntu for that. Just quite recently they took out the prevalence as a bug. I really liked Linus's point of view a few years back and hope he still has it. He wasn't looking for Linux to become -the- desktop juggernaut , just a major player. He wanted true availability of options for desktop os , even Linux should not be the almost-monopoly standard.

While we have quite a longs way to get there, maybe someday we will get to a real three way split of Linux-ish, iOS-ish and Windows-ish operating systems on people's main computer device (desktop / laptop / tablet / whatever).

[sunrat]

While we have quite a longs way to get there, maybe someday we will get to a real three way split of Linux-ish, iOS-ish and Windows-ish operating systems on people's main computer device (desktop / laptop / tablet / whatever).

We are already there. Android is Linux-ish and has a healthy share of the mobile computer market. I am not sure of overall figures, but I read recently that Samsung have sold 3 times as many smartphones as Apple.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Android is Linux-ish...

 

From THIS wikipedia article about the Android OS:

 

Whether or not Android counts as a Linux distribution is a widely debated topic, with the Linux Foundation^[81] and Chris DiBona,^[82] Google's open source chief, in favour. Others, such as Google engineer Patrick Brady disagree, noting the lack of support for many GNU tools, including glibc, in Android.^[83]

 

^{It's not really the GNU/Linux OS without the GNU part. It is an OS based on the Linux kernel, though.}

 

And as I always say each time that the debate about the future of Linux comes up....

 

1) Linux PWNS the server market right now that runs the Cloud.

 

and

 

2) I don't want Linux to ever go commercial like MS Windows or Apple iOS.

[sunrat]

End of.

[Guest LilBambi]

I believe that Shuttleworth is throwing in the towel because they screwed up with Ubuntu in many ways.

 

Their built in marketing crap, their movement away from true open source in some respects, moving away from the open source community, turning their back on their roots.

 

He can blame it on whatever he wants, but in my mind, they screwed up with Ubuntu and now only those who don't know what they have done or have been with it from the beginning will stick with Ubuntu.

[saturnian]

He can blame it on whatever he wants, but in my mind, they screwed up with Ubuntu and now only those who don't know what they have done or have been with it from the beginning will stick with Ubuntu.

 

I don't think I fit into either of those two categories.

 

My two cents worth:

 

I've been running Ubuntu (and sometimes Kubuntu) since 6.06 (Dapper) -- along with several other Linux distros. With Ubuntu distros, I usually run only LTS releases (I did the same with Ubuntu-based Mint, but I am not currently running Mint). I currently have both Ubuntu 12.04 and Kubuntu 12.04 installed.

 

I do not feel that Ubuntu has been "screwed up."

 

I don't like that they went with the shopping lens thing by default; I think it should be opt-in instead of opt-out. But from what I understand, a simple command gets rid of it: sudo apt-get remove unity-lens-shopping. And the lens doesn't even come into play outside of Unity (I also use GNOME Shell in Ubuntu). But I haven't been bothered by it yet because that lens isn't in 12.04.

 

I don't have any other issues with Ubuntu or Canonical at this time. I like Unity and what they've done with it.

 

When the next LTS version rolls around (next year), I'll probably download it and install it and see what I think. If it works for me like all of the other LTS releases have worked for me, then I'm fine with that. It's a free operating system, and I have the freedom to choose whether or not to use it, so it all comes down to whether or not it's something that I can use. My feeling is that Ubuntu 12.04 and Kubuntu 12.04 are the best releases of those distros that I've run here so far.

 

I really don't think that I'm an "Ubuntu fan-boy." My favorite distro, and the one that's most important to me here, is Debian, and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I just use what works, and for me, Ubuntu LTS works and keeps on working. All of this other stuff, controversies, marketing, shopping lens, moving the window control buttons to the left side, the default color scheme, Unity, whatever things that irritate people about Ubuntu... Hey, if I can install the next LTS version here and set it up and use it for a few years without any major problems, then I'll be happy and that's really all that matters to me.

 

Perhaps I'll feel differently in the future. But right now, I read all of the things written about Ubuntu and Canonical and it's like, wow, it just seems like another good distro when I'm running it here, what's the big deal? Maybe some people will say that I've got my head stuck in the sand, I've got blinders on and I'm simply not seeing the problems that everyone else is seeing. I don't know.

 

Sorry for the long rant. I love Linux and I try not to be biased towards (or against) any particular distro. I think I have good reasons for running the distros I run here, and for dropping the distros that I've dropped. Haven't found any good reasons to drop Ubuntu. Yet.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Long rants are good. No need to apologize. I started my Linux adventure with Ubuntu Dapper Drake 6.06, too. I have fond memories of it still... even a screenie:

 

[Guest LilBambi]

Good point Saturnian. I always was that way too -- not biased for or against any particular distro.

 

But after the advertising lens fiasco, along with the other things, I admit, I did become more jaded about Ubuntu and those in charge of the distro.

[Guest LilBambi]

I enjoyed Ubuntu back in Edgy eft and Feisty Fawn. But I didn't like where they were going so I moved to pure Debian.

 

I still enjoy all the distros I have used including Ubuntu, but the others appear to be much more open source friendly, open source community friendly, and don't turn on their roots as it seems that Ubuntu and Canonical have done of late.

 

Of course, there were issues when Redhat/Fedora happened as well, and I came around with them too and went on with Fedora for a while.

 

I guess in some ways, I just don't like radical changes. I felt the same way with Mandrake when it changed names and the way the distro was handled when I moved on to Redhat and later Fedora. And I may find out that Ubuntu and Canonical may redeem themselves in my mind as well.

 

Sorry if I offended Saturnian or any others that feel strongly about Ubuntu. That was certainly not my intention.

Edited June 5, 2013 by LilBambi

[Peachy]

I still like openSUSE mainly because of YaST and that you can use both zypper and rpm for package management. But playing with Raspberry Pi for the last year has made me fond of Debian again.

[saturnian]

Yeah, I think all I really should have said about Ubuntu is that, you know, two sides to every coin, something like that. Sometimes I wonder if Shuttleworth and Canonical don't actually enjoy pushing peoples' buttons and coming out with something controversial every few months. But in the end, you can install Ubuntu LTS and set it up how you want it and you've pretty much a got worry-free system for a few years; that's been my experience, anyway.

 

Still, each time a new LTS rolls around and I go to install it, I'm thinking, "Is this where I'll finally have to stop using Ubuntu?" I'm never sure about this dang distro over the long term!

[Guest LilBambi]

I hear ya saturnian! That's true of any OS I think...open or closed or anywhere in between.

[crp]

Still, each time a new LTS rolls around and I go to install it, I'm thinking, "Is this where I'll finally have to stop using Ubuntu?" I'm never sure about this dang distro over the long term!

Does a new LTS "nullify" official support of the previous LTS or is an LTS always good for 18 months (or whatever)? One of the things that really bugs me is that Linux vendors don't seem to care that a lot of people (including me) treat our linux servers like Novell's 2 & 3 .

[securitybreach]

Does a new LTS "nullify" official support of the previous LTS or is an LTS always good for 18 months (or whatever)? One of the things that really bugs me is that Linux vendors don't seem to care that a lot of people (including me) treat our linux servers like Novell's 2 & 3 .

 

Well Ubuntu is not really a server distro. If you want something with long term support, try Debian or CentOS (Redhat clone).

[Peachy]

Actually, Ubuntu can be used as a server since there is a tweaked LTS server version with 5 years of support.

[saturnian]

Does a new LTS "nullify" official support of the previous LTS or is an LTS always good for 18 months (or whatever)?

 

No -- for example, 12.04 has an "end of life date" of April 2017, but the next LTS is 14.04 (April 2014). See: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases

 

I kinda like the graphic here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS

 

So, 5 years support for LTS releases, desktop or server. For me, though, 2 years is long enough for the desktop.

Edited June 9, 2013 by saturnian

[Cookie]

 

Hi everyone. It's been a while.

 

I kind of agree that the iPad is the future of computing for the mainstream user. The things are just D*** convenient.

 

But that's not why I chose to post on this thread.

 

Coming from a marketing background I believe it is worth mentioning that Ubuntu (I always think Ubuntu because they seem to me to be the only player serious about the game) if they truly want to sit at the big boy table has to slow their roll.

 

Releasing a new long term every year is fine. But all of the subsequent releases....why? All that does is confuse the consumer. Ppl new to the ways of Linux see the prompt for a new version and just click OK. Why? Because they are programmed to. They don't realize that they don't have to upgrade to the next minor release.

 

I always picture my father when i think of the average user.

 

My dad. 60 years old. Fingers too big to type. Hates the fact that he has to use this machine to do his job. Has some skill in office applications and Internet apps but that's about it. All he wants in life is a computer that will do what he tells it to do with zero stuff popping up and impeding his progress.

 

The average consumer has no interest in the spanking new version of Libre. Or the slightly tweaked unity desktop Ubuntu arbitrarily decides to implement. All they want is a stable, stylish, and easy to use interface that will whisk them to Facepage and Photodump as quickly as possible. They want to get that PowerPoint on the screen immediately with zero fuss.

 

Robust, ppl ready distros offer just that...but with a bunch of stuff that WILL send my dad running back to Bill.

 

Update managers & new releases.

 

We look at windows and osx and ask ourselves why they wait years in between new releases. Are they too slow? Are they having integration issues?

 

Nope. They wait because they get it. They understand that ppl just want their computers to function. They understand that ppl just want to turn the thing on and go. And they get that ppl would rather wait to get the hot new OS when they buy a new laptop.

 

Stop releasing new versions all the time. It is confusing. If u must release new stuff and fix bugs then be smart about it and call it an "update" or a "patch." Ppl know what those things are and will act accordingly. But new versions just for the sake of pumping out something else is, in regards to marketing, STTTUUUUUPPPPIIIDDDD!!!

 

Same thing goes for the software manager. Nary a day goes by that Ubuntu isn't telling me I have 384 items to update. WHY?!?! Libreoffice is working fine. Firefox is great. Thunderbird is humming along.

 

Seasoned Linux ppl see these releases for what they are and either will or won't buy in. But again, new users are confused and turned off by all the D*** updates and upgrade prompts.

 

Marketing is about knowing your audience and I think Ubuntu is too close to the project to see it clearly.

 

And Marketing is absolutely about attracting audience. But it is also about keeping them. The very thing we all love about our distro is the same thing that pushes a lot of ppl away.

 

Getting them is easy. Ppl are always curious about the word "free."

 

What we have to do is figure out how to keep them once we get them.

[sunrat]

Cookie, what you say is true about Ubuntu, but Linux is not only Ubuntu. Many of us have chosen other distros including some of us who are not happy with Ubuntu frequent upgrades. And of course Ubuntu LTS versions suffer much less upgrade mania. Debian stable and Red Hat are examples of distros that have very rare releases.

Some of us also enjoy living life on the edge and use distros that are much better at incorporating new software versions regularly, such as Arch and siduction.

Also you compare Ubuntu to Windows as an example of rare upgrades; Windows has upgrades every first Tuesday of each month!

[jolphil]

Hi Been a while since I have been here.

I must say that at 78 yrs old I have to agree with Cookie's Dad..I started with Caldera many years ago and moved through

SuSe, Mandrake/Mandriva and now Mint/Ubuntu..I am not pleased with the 9 month 1 year releases either and also tend to stick with the LTS stuff..That does not mean I do not try new stuff, but it usually takes me a year to get used to where everything is located.

I use linux to do specific things many of which are not available in Windows or to costly for me to purchase.Math /Electronics packages and the like are what I download and install and use...The present edition of Libre office or Thunderbird like Cookie's Dad are fine with me too.Linux just works for my taste.Ok I admidt that a bit of compiz eye candy is showing off..HeHe..

Heck, I still have trouble programming my new GPS much less try to learn a new version every 9 months or so.I throw my hat into the ring that it is confusing at least to me, that various Linux distros(with the exception of Debian) change so often..

If I go to my user group usually I am the only one there with a Linux Laptop and no one cares or even notices that my system is different than their Windows 7 box ..Most don't even know Linux is an operating system, and those that do don't care.

Just my 2Cts.

Jolphil

[Cookie]

I am so sorry. I didnt make my meaning clear.

I too enjoy the fact that my distro ensures that my system is totally up to date.

But I was writing this with the average user in mind. And I always pick on Ubuntu because they are the all the average user MAY have ever heard of. The gateway Linux as it were lol.

 

To the average user, update prompts are an inconvenience. A groan. An eye roll. So monthly update pushes...not that big a deal really. But daily??? Idk.

[sunrat]

And I always pick on Ubuntu because they are the all the average user MAY have ever heard of. The gateway Linux as it were lol.

 

I like picking on Ubuntu as well. They may do some things well, but being a shining showcase for Linux in general is not one of them.

[abarbarian]

Cookie,

 

 

 

We look at windows and osx and ask ourselves why they wait years in between new releases. Are they too slow? Are they having integration issues?

 

 

 

Most folk look at Windows and Apple's new os's and think, Oh no not more loot, how much this time, how many crashes will I have before it becomes stable, how many hours will I have to spend getting my programs up to date so they will work that is if they will work with this new version.How many hours of work time will I have to spend trying to work out how to use these new intuative improvements.

 

Microsoft and Apple meanwhile are thinking. Are the public stupid enough to buy a new os every six months or will they only buy one every 12 months or every two years. Lets spring a new os on them, one that we cobbled together in a few hours that is still ful of bugs and if it craps out we will still ahve made loads of loot and we can sell them the new improved version that is still full of bugs but has some of the old bugs sorted. So we make even more loot without doing hardly anything. Great.

 

[Guest LilBambi]

Except for us who are technicians, many users are very happy with Windows 7 or OS X Lion for a while. Until they need something that is no longer supported on the older ones and it happens quickly ... too quickly for me. But on the other hand, as a technician, I have the itch to move forward too, and also balk at what seems like constant costs.

 

Thankfully I use a very stable Debian which keeps me sane!

[Frank Woods]

I gave up on Linux, I am getting too old and senile to fool with it.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

I gave up on Linux, I am getting too old and senile to fool with it.

 

How funny! That's the very same reason I gave up on MS Windows.

[securitybreach]

How funny! That's the very same reason I gave up on MS Windows.

 

Indeed

[trigggl]

Personally, I've found the distro that works for me. I've stopped caring for the most part if the rest of the world adopts it. One thing about Gentoo is that you just assume that they won't.

 

I have noticed a lot of companies using FreeBSD. I guess FreeBSD allows them to more easily close their systems while still using a *nix. It appears that Sony is going to be using FreeBSD for the PS4, and we already know about Macs using it.

 

One thing that just happened recently to me is I had a motherboard die. I swapped out the motherboard with one with the same processor family and it booted right up. I didn't need to call anyone for a new key or download new drivers. Of course, I swapped it to the board that it came from in the first place, so that I already had the kernel configured for it. I'm glad I kept it in the config.

[Guest LilBambi]

Hey Greg! Good to see you. Been a while.