Bridging help needed

[Ed_P]

Hello Ragnar,

I should cover some basics. A network in the IP world is defined by both the IP address and netmask.

!!! Really! I wasn't aware of that. Maybe once upon a time but certainly not now.

you must turn off NAT on router2

I have this option available.

If you can't add static routes to router1 (try Special Application, Tools, or Help) ... then you can't make it work.

I can redirect ports but not routes. Thus turning off NAT on 2 is not going to help?

You should be able to ping machines on the 192.168.254.x network from the 192.168.2.x network,

Holy crap! I can! But my Network Neighborhood doesn't show that connection. How do I enable this view/connection so I can upload my backups? I can live with this configuration. It's not perfect but it certainly is functional. Wow. You're good Ragnar. Very good indeed. Wow. Thank you. Ed

[Ragnar Paulson]

I can redirect ports but not routes. Thus turning off NAT on 2 is not going to help?

Exactly. Turning off NAT will break your Internet access until such time as Router 1 can support static routes.

But my Network Neighborhood doesn't show that connection. How do I enable this view/connection so I can upload my backups?

You can't. Even in a working non-NAT configuration your machines on opposite sides of the router will not show up in Network Neighbourhood. Netbios/Netbuie relies on chatty ethernet broadcasts to identify machines in a workgroup or windows domain. However, in a non-NAT environment you CAN map network drives by IP address across the router. With some fiddling with WINS or DNS you can even map network drives by name. In a NATed environment you are SOL. I don't believe you will be able to map shares from oneside of router2 to the other.There are of course many ways to skin the cat they say. You could put all machines that require internet access (surfing etc) on the outside network, then turn off NAT on router2 and add all the static routes I mentioned earlier. Option 2... if that is not possible ... it may be that router2 supports proxy services, or some machine on the outside network supports proxy services, again turn off NAT on router 2 and add the appropriate proxies. Option 3 - replace router1 with one that can support static routes. Option 4 - replace router2 with a hub/switch and go with one network.

I can live with this configuration. It's not perfect but it certainly is functional. Wow.  You're good Ragnar. Very good indeed. Wow. Thank you. 

Natch. If that were true it wouldn't have taken 31 posts to get to this point ... which is still not perfect. And is in fact exactly where you started.

[Ed_P]

Now wait a minute;

However, in a non-NAT environment you CAN map network drives by IP address across the router.

However

Turning off NAT will break your Internet access until such time as Router 1 can support static routes.

I'm confused.With NAT enabled on router 2 I can PING an address on router 1. That indicates connectivity. In addition you said

You should be able to ping machines on the 192.168.254.x network from the 192.168.2.x network, and connect to those machines (telnet, ftp, print)

If I can PING it why can't I address it via Windows? I can even signon to router 1 using 192.168.254.254 from router 2. How am I to upload backups to router 1 pcs if I can't address them?

I can live with this configuration. It's not perfect but it certainly is functional.

When I said that I thought the pcs on router 2 would have 'net access, printer access AND upload capability. <sigh> I thought I was close.

If that were true it wouldn't have taken 31 posts to get to this point ... which is still not perfect. And is in fact exactly where you started.

Not entirely true. I'm a little smarter now. I've learned,been exposed to, the netstat and route commands and know that a network encompasses both an IP address range and a mask now.

put all machines that require internet access (surfing etc) on the outside network

No can do.

it may be that router2 supports proxy services

Doesn't appear to.

replace router1

Would rather not.

replace router2 with a hub/switch

If I put router 2 into WAP mode isn't that the same thing? In switching I can specify an IP address and a subnet mask. In the past I have accepted the defaults of 192.168.2.254/255.255.255.0. If I change the subnet mask to 255.255.0.0 and it takes would this then solve the conectivity problem? WAP automatically disables all routing and firewall functions. I haven't tried this mode in a few weeks cause whenever I did in the past I would loose the ability to signon to the router to make further changes and had to use the Reset button and start over. I'm not sure at this point what I was doing wrong, I may have been connected to router 2 via wireless and that could have been the problem.

some machine on the outside network supports proxy services

The Help for Win XP doesn't seem to indicate that XP has that capability.Replacing the hardware isn't impossible but I gotta believe there is a way to get this stuff to play nice.Ed

[Marsden11]

Is there any way you can turn Router #2 to just a wireless access point with nothing else?What is the brand and model of Router #2?

[Ragnar Paulson]

With NAT enabled on router 2 I can PING an address on router 1. That indicates connectivity. In addition you saidQUOTE  You should be able to ping machines on the 192.168.254.x network from the 192.168.2.x network, and connect to those machines (telnet, ftp, print)  If I can PING it why can't I address it via Windows? I can even signon to router 1 using 192.168.254.254 from router 2. How am I to upload backups to router 1 pcs if I can't address them?

router 2 maps all 192.168.2.x addresses to 192.168.254.203 and "remembers" the connection. Essentially when a PC (eg 192.168.2.2) pings PC2 - 192.168.254.12 say -, the router makes it look like a ping from 192.168.254.203. PC2 can deal with this and sends a response to 192.168.254.203 and router deals with remembering who asked for the ping. Same with telnet, ftp and client/server apps where the original connection begin on the inside net. Confession time: I haven't "tried" to map a share through NAT, I just assume it won't work because file sharing is more peer-to-peer (and SMB over Netbios is incredibly chatty) then client server. You may be able to share drives on the 192.168.254.x network with PCs on the inside net because the map request originates internally ... try it and see. I don't think it will work, and the other way certainly won't work ... you can't initiate any connections to 192.168.2.x because no one outside router2 can see that network or find a route to it.

If I put router 2 into WAP mode isn't that the same thing? In switching I can specify an IP address and a subnet mask. In the past I have accepted the defaults of 192.168.2.254/255.255.255.0. If I change the subnet mask to 255.255.0.0 and it takes would this then solve the conectivity problem? WAP automatically disables all routing and firewall function

Beyond my experience. This is the Wireless Access Point that Marsden refers to? Sounds like a good plan. You also need to set your netmask to 255.255.0.0 on all external PCs ... you might be better off changing the defaults to 192.168.254.203/255.255.255.0 ... then simply ensure that none of your internal static machines (which all need to be changed) have the same ip as an external machine. Will router2 still act as a DHCP server then? Even better, if it switches/bridges in WAP mode ... let router1 act as the DHCP server for the whole net and turn off DHCP in router2 as well.Caveat: The above paragraph is a guess based on experience but I've never worked with wireless or WAP.Ragnar

[Ed_P]

Is there any way you can turn Router #2 to just a wireless access point with nothing else?

Yes but when I have tried it in the past I have lost connectivity to router 2's configuration screens.

What is the brand and model of Router #2?

Belkin F5D6231-4.

You may be able to share drives on the 192.168.254.x network with PCs on the inside net because the map request originates internally ... try it and see.

It can be done!!!! I'll be dipped!! It, my pc running Win XP, couldn't access the named devices but it can with specific IP addresses. I had to check my wiring 3 times to be sure I was doing what I thought I was doing. With this testing I've been frequently switching my machine between routers. Now will the Win 98 machines connected to router 2 be able to repeat the process? Yup!! Not as slick as Win XP but a shortcut to

file:\\192.168.254.xxx

works!! Specific addresses is a minor inconvenience using DHCP but not a show stopped.

you can't initiate any connections to 192.168.2.x because no one outside router2 can see that network or find a route to it.

Yup, that be the case.

Beyond my experience. This is the Wireless Access Point that Marsden refers to?

Yes, and that I mentioned in yesterday's post.

You also need to set your netmask to 255.255.0.0 on all external PCs ... you might be better off changing the defaults to 192.168.254.203/255.255.255.0

?? I can not change router 1's netmask. But I can change the defaults on router 2 to 198.168.254.203/255.255.255.0. Or I can at least try to. As I mentioned earlier when I have changed router 2 to be a simple AP in the past I lost connectivity to it's web-based user interface so I have no idea whether my changes took or not.According to the manual, yes I have one and I do read it, "Using this mode will defeat the NAT IP sharing feature and DHCP server." It also turns off the firewall feature.

that none of your internal static machines (which all need to be changed) have the same ip as an external machine. Will router2 still act as a DHCP server then? Even better, if it switches/bridges in WAP mode ... let router1 act as the DHCP server for the whole net and turn

With router 2 as an AP that is what should occur or at least my understanding of what shold occur. Because of my past problems with this mode I was looking for other options, which at this point I appear to have.

I've never worked with wireless or WAP.

NOW you tell me?! Ok, now that I know that I have a system that can work, and know how to use it, I will try the WAP feature again. I'll keep you posted.Again I thank you and all the others for bearing with me and helping me thru this.

[nlinecomputers]

Cool!If your hard coding the names then add them to your hosts file. That will let you refer to them by name.

[Ed_P]

If your hard coding the names then add them to your hosts file.

We think alike. That thought came to me while walking the dog. But then I was thinking that the host file is used only by IE. But then I began to think it's used by anything IP related. That thought was reinforced when I realized that the icon for the file: shortcut is the IE icon.The hosts file on my Win98 systems is in the Windows folder with a name of hosts.sam but isn't that a sample file? Isn't the live file name for Win98 suppose to be just "hosts"? Is it the same for WinXP?

[Ed_P]

And now it's over.I have put the router 2 into WAP mode again, and once again I no longer have access to it's config screens using either the 192.168.254.203 address I set it to be or the original default 192.168.2.1 address while still cabled to it. Yet the book says I should still be able to access the config screens in this mode. In that everything is configured at this point it's not a major concern.But, all pcs see each other regardless of router connection, they all have access to the net, and the printer. DNS is being handled by router 1 for all pcs regardless of router connection.So I have exactly what I wanted. I just don't understand what took me so long to get here and as was pointed out previously what's different. Other than the fact that the network is working perfectly. In looking at the NETSTAT -R display I see 192.168.254.214 as being a Gateway address in a lot of places. I also see that address with the IPCONFIG command as being my pc. Hopefully the network still functions when I unplug my pc.I do know I could not have arrived at this point without the help and support of all of you and in particular Ragnar Paulson to whom I due owe "a wee dram of whiskey" or two. I also know that Belkin's online support for their routers consists of an email informing you to call an 800 number and follow up emails are disregarded and never acknowledged. And I know that I will probably never buy Belkin components again nor will I recommend any of them to even my worst enemy. Other than that I am satisfied with the product. Now to the Belkin wireless NIC in the W98 pc. When last working with it it caused the pc to fail to boot after working for several days. A restore of the c: drive to a point prior to it's installation did not resolve the problem. Removing the NIC was the only way to get the pc to boot again. Maybe it was tied to the router not working at that point, I don't know. But if I run into problems you all will be the 1st to know. :)Ed

[Ed_P]

EpilogWith a last perusal of the Belkin website I found a new firmware update for my F5D6231-4 router. Dated Sept 2003. No documentation on what was fixed in it or even how to install it, ie do I copy it to a floppy or use it as is. I was a little concerned and wondered if there was a way to backup the current firmware in case there was a problem with the upgrade. I wrote to Belkin's Tech Support asking those questions but even though I received no respond (what a surprise) I decided to go ahead anyways. After all what did I have to loose.So I once again pushed the Reset button and left my functioning WAP mode. Back in normal mode I once again restored my config settings and then initiated the firmware upgrade.After 15 minutes of the router's lights flashing in a repeated pattern I determined that the upgrade was either done or hung. I unplugged the unit waited 5 secs and replugged it. Same situation, power light and WAN light flash and the port light for my pc is on. But no connectivity. I repeated the unplugging/replugging with the same results. Finally I pushed the Reset button, but surprise, now it has no effect. I found someone else having the same problems with this router and AP mode on a different forum. Apparently the problem is not mine alone. And I've found that the SSID is broadcast regardless of whether the option is enable or disabled which makes encryption a must. Now I get to see if Belkin really does give a lifetime warrantee.

[Ed_P]

And in conclusion:I returned the Belkin F5D6231-4 with firmware v1.00.xxx Oct 7th and got the replacement Oct 16th. And the replacement has firmware v2.00.002!!However, when putting this router into AP mode not only do I loose the ability to signon on to it any more I loose all connectivity; 'net, other pcs, printer.I was relenting to simply using it as a router with the cross router pc access problem when I happened upon this link http://www4.tomshardware.com/network/20030716/. It describes my configuration problems exactly. So after reading it I disabled DHCP processing in the Belkin router, moved the cable connecting the 2 routers from the Belkin's WAN port to a normal LAN port and voila, I have full access to the network from all pcs regardless to which router they are connected to and I can signon and off to the Belkin router to change WiFi settings.I may have lost a cable LAN port but I still have my health. And my sanity. Such a long, long, long road to such a simple solution.

[Marsden11]

Sounds like a clear recomendation not to use Belkin Routers...

[Ed_P]

Least not as an Access Point, unless you read this thread.