Norton Antivirus 2004 Personal Ed.

[KarlT]

I read recently (and I think it was in Scot's newsletter) that NAV 2004 can be used on up to 5 computers. However, I was at the store recently, and it says on the "Professional" edition box that it includes licenses for "up to 2 computers". Wow! Be still my heart. Does anyone know if there is a problem in using the personal edition on 2 computers, or if the activation/registration process blocks you from using it on more than one computer? How does this activation process work anyway - ie., how do they know how many computers you have a particular one on? I am totally ignorant of this business because I am still using Win98SE, and thus have not gone thru the MS mess with XP. For that matter how does MS know? Do they keep all the CD code numbers on THEIR computers? Thanks for any input on subject. KarlT

[KarlT]

I did not mean to post twice; I was informed that a "fatal error" had occured due to time out, so I tried again. KarlT

[nlinecomputers]

I can't speak for Norton's Product Activation but I can for XPs.Windows Product Activation (WPA) is fairly simple and actually quite leinant. When you install XP it does an inventory of critcal parts of your system, the motherboard, the NIC card, the hard drive, the video card and so on. It assigns a hash number based on the hardware found. It then combines this number with your Product ID number which is a number generated by XP based on your CD-KEY. This number is then sent to Microsoft to be registered. As long as the serial number is valid you are then activated. Microsoft keeps this information on hand for 90 days. Should you have to reinstall on the same hardware you will have no problems. The number generated by XP to send in will be the same number as before. If it's within the 90 day period then your system will match what is on file and you'll be activated.(The end user will not see any difference in the proceedure.) If it is after the 90 day period then the WPA system will treat you as if you are a new user. So again the end user will not see any difference in the proceedure.If you CHANGE hardware on your system Windows will reevaluate your system and check to see if WPA has failed. Changing one item ,for example your NIC card or a hard drive is not enough to cause a WPA failure. It usually takes 3 or 4 items changed to cause a WPA failure. Now this is again where the 90 day part comes in. If the upgrade is within 90 days your attempt to reactivate windows will fail and you will have to call the WPA center. If it is after the 90 day period WPA will treat this as a new activatation and it will proceed. In theroy you could pirate a copy of Windows every 90 days this way. However the more people you put into your pirate ring the more likely it would be that someone "older" then you would have to reactivate. Now the problem is while Microsoft allows you to change your hardware every 90 days that doesn't mean that they don't track every hardware change made. So if the first person in the ring has to reactivate his old hash number is suddenly back requesting an activatation. Maybe Microsoft will allow it maybe they will not? You could end up effectivly giving your copy away to your pirates.

[KarlT]

Thanks for the info on Microsoft; I have been wondering how it worked. Now if anyone knows how Symantec is doing it . . . ? Since I keep changing the guts of my computers (2), that could be a problem right there. KarlT

[Prelude76]

plus if you like re-formating your computer, you're in for a world of headaches.may i recommend alternatives? McAfee and F-Prot both make excellent anti-virus programs. I've been using F-Prot a lot lately myself, and it's memory footprint is less than half of Norton Antivirus. It's update feature is quick as well. besides these days, when a virus breaks out, virtually all of the anti-virus companies have all their databases updated. as far as i know, only norton is starting with product activation and we should all discourage this practice. it's bad enough that windows does it, but can you imagine down the road if you have 20 programs, all needing to be activated, and you had hard drive failure and need to re-load and re-activate ALL those programs? oh the headache! >_<besides, the ironic thing is product activation only causes inconvenience to LEGIT customers. people that bootleg programs use 'corporate' versions of windows and norton, as it just needs a plain serial number and product activation is disabled.

[KarlT]

Hi Prelude76: Thank you for the info on McAfee and F-Prot. I had never heard of F-Prot before, so did a Google search and it looks like you can only buy their deal as a download? How big is that download and who is F-Prot? I don't see any info on their site as to who they are. Do they keep their defnitions up to date as well as McAfee? I recently saw a review of various antivirus programs and McAfee seemed to rate highest. 4 years ago, when I purchased an HP computer, it came with McAfee on it, and I repeatedly tried to email them to get info on updating, etc., and they totally ignored me, so I went with Norton at that time. Ironically, McAfee then put me on their mailing list and keeps sending me stuff about their software. As you say, Norton has a BIG footprint; something smaller, provided it works well, would be highly desireable. Karl

[KarlT]

OK, I did not have my browser window open all the way (bookmarks on left); I now see their deal and that they are in Iceland. Karl

[nlinecomputers]

F-Secure is out of Iceland and is one of the major players in the AV biz, even though a lot of people have never heard of them.Another good anti-virus is AVG from www.grisosft.com. They offer a FREE anti-virus product that is what I use and install on most home machines that I service.

[Prelude76]

F-Prot is one of the major original anti-virus boys. i used to use them all the time in the DOS days, and way back then, they used to be number 1, in my opinion. they've been around so long they GOTTA know what they're doing. but i honestly didnt realize they were still around, but they are and their new version is quite impressive, but they dont have the advertising and marketing reach of Symantec so dont expect to find them in your local store. whats important is that it works, and it has found one email worm so far and zapped it effortelessly, so i'm a happy camper.as for mcafee, they had real troubles for a few years but this year, they've woke up again. they got bought out by Computer Associates, and even though Computer Associates dont have the best reputation for quality programs out there, they do have lots of money to help McAfee out. I havent tried the McAfee VirusScan recently, but i am using their Firewall program and even though its a bit bloated, i find it a very nice firewall program. if bloat is number one consideration, i'd recommend F-Prot over McAfee. also, many people on this board have mentioned Panda Anti-Virus and AVG AntiVirus (free). i havent tried either one, but you can look into them.

[Prelude76]

about F-Prot, i'm on my home PC and just did a bit of checking. F-Prot's real-time scanning shows up as just one process "F-STOPW.EXE" in Task Manager, and takes only 2,080K. i forget exactly how much Norton uses up, but it has 3 or 4 processes running and aprox 5 or 6 mb ram, if someone can confirm this.Also, how much do other AV programs use up? I'm interested to see which AV uses least memory while running real-time scanning.

[Peachy]

Task Manager lists two processes attributable to AVG; one that is 1.4 MB and a another at 204 KB. Been using AVG for almost two years now. It plain works and updates are free!

[KarlT]

This F-Prot thing intrigues me. Of course the fact that they used to be good does not necessarily mean that they are now. I tried AVG (free version) for awhile on one computer, while I used Norton on the other, and AVG updates were about 3 MB each time (it looked like they just dumped everything previous when they came out with a new update) but what really worried me about them was that frequently it was several days after a new major threat came out that was supposedly blocked by Norton and McAfee before AVG had an update. Also, I have heard of cases where AVG just locked up when it found something; Norton has never done that to me; it asks me what to do and then if it can't fix it, it deletes it at my request. And I have heard about problems with McAfee, altho I had a problem with Norton where it totally disabled me and I had to do a system restore. I then emailed Symantec and told them, and their response was "yes we know there is a problem with that software update and have removed it" They then went on to recommend that I remove it from my computer (HOW if I did not have a system backup?) and wait a week or so and they would have that software update fixed. When this happened a second time a couple of months ago, I just stopped downloading their software updates and just keep the definitions up to date!I really appreciate all the comments this post has elicited. If any reader knows how NAV activation works, let me know!Thanks again for the useful input.KarlT

[KarlT]

Forgot to mention above, re McAfee firewall, I have had very satisfactory results from the free Sygate firewall, and it, like ZoneAlarm blocks unapproved outgoing stuff as well as incoming stuff. From what I have read, many firewalls only protect against incoming stuff which is not good if you get something that starts trying use your computer as a sending agent. KarlT

[zlim]

I use McAfee v7 on one computer and free AVG on the others (3). McAfee really slows down my computer and I don't intend to renew it. I thought about upgrading to v8 (some one had it advertised for free after all the rebates) but when I mentioned it on another forum, someone mentioned that it is strictly online. As a dialup user I do not want an online version of software. I like to know what is going on my computer and when. I also want to scan without being connected to the internet.I've been very happy with AVG and if they drop the free version I'd spend my money on AVG before McAfee.

[FuzzButt]

I posted something on NAV 2004.The PA that Scot was talking about in the latest Newsletter was on it. The Pro edetion comes with 2 licenses. What Scot was saying is that the Product can be reinstalled 5 times or there abouts. So you can for instance format and start over after 4 serious crashes and the product should still be installable. This is not confirmed though but is what he was trying to hint at. In this new era I don't mind the $49 per PC to kep it protected. Just the cost of Computing. Besides there is a lot of daily work that AV products need to stay useful. Chris

[Peachy]

And apparently, Symantec's PA has been cracked!

[nlinecomputers]

The problem with putting Product Activation on an anti-virus product is that the people that are smart enough to use Anti-virus are most likely the same ones that can find serial numbers and cracks on the internet. Everybody and there dog is now using Kaaza and almost every program, and all it cracking tools, that exists is up on some Kaaza share somewhere. Cracking programs is moving out from being geek to mainstream just like sharing music.

[KarlT]

Well, if Norton activation (or anyone else's) uses hard drive serial numbers as part of the process, that would never do for me because I discovered several years ago, that when the power is disconnected from Maxtor drives, the data pins go into a high impedance state where some mobo chipsets cannot "see" the drive. As a result, I put toggle switches on the back of both my computers, and turn off the slave when I am not going to be using it for back ups or for data stored there, so my drive serial numbers keep changing! Karl

[FuzzButt]

Well I advised a customer of mine to pickup NAV 2004 personal for her PC since I removed McAfee 4.03 from it this past weekend. Well I was onsite today to fix the Outlook Express issue after McAfee 4.03 is uninstalled. After that I installed NAV 2004. At least that was the plan. After the reboot I got a popup window with an error saying that NAV has a problem and you need to uninstall it and reinstall. There was a number 3030,26 at the bottom. I looked at the support page and there is an issue that they know about but do not have a fix for. They don't even have an estimate as to when a fix will be available. Just thought I would give you a heads up. NAV may not work for you. I uninstalled it and reinstalled and got the same error. The PC is running W98, IE 6.0 and does not have too many of the updates applied yet. The user has dial-up and there are 60MB in updates available to her. I don't know if the lake of updates is the issue or if it is something else. Chris

[Prelude76]

The user has dial-up and there are 60MB in updates available to her.

exactly why i'm gettin NAV away from any of dial-up users i help out, such as my dad. 60mb is too big for a friggin' anti-virus, and 60mb is just updates to it! unreal! My entire F-Prot AV folder is currently 12.9mb.

[FuzzButt]

The user has dial-up and there are 60MB in updates available to her.

exactly why i'm gettin NAV away from any of dial-up users i help out, such as my dad. 60mb is too big for a friggin' anti-virus, and 60mb is just updates to it! unreal! My entire F-Prot AV folder is currently 12.9mb.

Opps I should clairfy. 60MB in Windows updates. There were no AV updates besides a small definition file.

[nlinecomputers]

On the subject of AV update file size. Users of AVG 6.0 should note that they have changed the update files and they are MUCH smaller but you have to have the lastest version to get that benifit. So if you are a current user of AVG and you haven't updated the whole program in some time I would re-download it today. It will save you alot of bandwidth in the furture.

[Scot]

I think this has been addressed, but just to make doubly sure: The two-user allowance is what Symantec's EULA says. That's the official legal stance. But Symantec has been very forthcoming with me, at least, that each license can be installed on five PCs before any alarms go off in Symantec Product Activation Control, or whatever. (I'm making that up.)Symantec has NOT been very forthcoming about how their PA system works. But from what I could glean in more than one phone interview, it's almost identical to the way XP's PA works. But the technology is not provided by the same company. So there are bound to be at least minor differences.Given the five-machine leniency, I think most of us are just not going to have a problem with this PA system, which is why I haven't been all over it. I wish Microsoft would do that.-- Scot

[FuzzButt]

Given the five-machine leniency, I think most of us are just not going to have a problem with this PA system, which is why I haven't been all over it. I wish Microsoft would do that.

Well 5 might me enough for the average user. Us power users are a bit more likely able to cross the 5 limit on the same PC in about a year. Considering reinstalls of Windows in the mix. I had to call Microsoft Thursday twice to get that big huge number to activate my Win XP Pro. PA get in the way for the honest user more than the dishonest one.Chris

[nlinecomputers]

Fuzz,I've heard people that are power users make that claim before and I don't doubt that you have had to call in but I've NEVER had to call the WPA center for my own machines and only ONCE had to call on behalf of a client and that was only because he replaced his less then one month old computer with a new unit after lightning fried it. You make enough changes on your hardware in less then 90 days to cause you to have to reactivate? Or is it not working as advertised?If Norton's PA is going to work like M$ does then reinstalling on the same computer will NOT be an issue. M$ will ALLWAYS activate if reinstalled on the same hardware. I've never seen it not do so. If Norton's PA is like microsoft's then changing only some hardware(like a video card or a NIC) will not cause a product activation either.

[FuzzButt]

Fuzz,I've heard people that are power users make that claim before and I don't doubt that you have had to call in but I've NEVER had to call the WPA center for my own machines and only ONCE had to call on behalf of a client and that was only because he replaced his less then one month old computer with a new unit after lightning fried it.  You make enough changes on your hardware in less then 90 days to cause you to have to reactivate?  Or is it not working as advertised?

OK well I upgraded a PC here. I moved most of my previous parts to another case. Mobo, CPU, Memory, Graphics card, boot drive and NIC. Different to the install was the sound card, CDRW, DVDROM and it did not use the SIIG PCI-ATA133 adapter. Aparantly that was enough to activate PA. Then after it was back up removal of the Audigy 2 software and drivers for the SB Live! card caused enough conflice to need a Repair install. I is working fine now. I guess if Symantec's PA usage is a bit more forgiving we should be ok. I just don't liek how MS attaches so much equipment to PA. I can see maybe the Mobo/CPU/NIC/Hard drive but even plugging the NIC into a different PCI Slot and removing a few pieces of hardware is too much.The trickle down hardware approach is not PA safe.Chris

[volunteer]

Task Manager lists two processes attributable to AVG; one that is 1.4 MB and a another at 204 KB. Been using AVG for almost two years now. It plain works and updates are free!

Thanks Peachy, I decided to try the AVG. I like it a lot. Ken

[Guest ThunderRiver]

I have been using Norton Antivirus Corporate Edition 8.1 for quite sometime, and it occupies hard disk space for about 15 Mb. I am quite happy with it because it is not intrusive, and not a memory hog either.