Its a sad day indeed....

[jong357]

It seems as if censoring non-threatening opinions and ideas on a public forum has become a main stay here on SNLF....... In your attempt to make it a perfect forum, you supress ideas that could be benifical to many in order to please a few. When Windows users feel threatened by a harmless opinion stated in the Linux forum, Bruno is pushed by other mods to edit time and time again and then finally to bump it to the second page. Objective criticism is something everyone should have learned in school and at home. Questioning ones ideas and beliefs will ALWAYS lead to a broader view point in general and can do nothing but to evolve our standards and ways of thinking. If I truely intended to ruffle feathers, I would have posted it here in the Water Cooler. I would also have truely slandered... I did no such thing at any given time. But this post is all for naught because it will only be up for a few minutes at the most I'm sure. please accept my most humble appology regarding the article I linked to and my most unforgivable comment about windows and about leopard seals. I will no longer trouble this forum with my radical viewoints and my aparent troublemaker attitude.Resectfully yours, Jon Grosshart

[SonicDragon]

Hopefully i will get to this before they close it, if not i'll pm. I don't think you should leave. If you didn't post the article to offend people, don't worry abou it. I think your taking the posts regarding your article i little too seriously. Just say "woops" sorry guys, i didn't mean it that way, and forget it! They already closed the one in the Linux forum ( i don't know why ) so i am trying to make this quick.Don't go. it was just a mistake, and i don't think much harm was taken. I use XP primarily, and i don't really care. Good luck <edit>It seems they are not deleteing this one so i will continue.It is certainly understandable why the mods don't want a flame war. The Windows vs Linux vs Mac issue is way over debated and can cause a lot of bad feelings. It's like debating religions. We just don't want to go there. Try not to take it personally. We've all been there, where others in the forum don't see eye to eye with you and we feel like they are insulting us, etc. I think our initial reacting is to over-react. Don't worry about it. Just say Woops and whatever.It's sad to leave, but if that's what u feel is right... I guess that's one of the best things about forums: we can all go away with the click of a mouse.</edit>

[GolfProRM]

JonI'm sorry you feel the way you do about our efforts at moderation... Deciding what should be allowed and what shouldn't involves walking a very fine line. If you felt Bruno was being pushed by others to make the decisions he did, you're not quite right. Bruno did consult with me about the exact meanings of your posts (he's not a native English speaker). I simply helped him translate the slang used and he acted of his own decisions. We had no malicious intentions; we just have to keep topics from turning into flame wars. If I've caused any harm, I'm sorry. The only thing I ask for is a little respect as a Windows user. I'm sure you expect the same as a Linux user. We as moderators are learning as we go. We're doing our best to keep the peace as much as possible, and we all know the Linux vs. Windows debate could be a heated one. We try to avoid the mud-slinging as much as possible as it usually does no good. Constructive argumentation is one thing, but when it has the likelihood of turning into a flame war, we have to watch out. Again, this is nothing personal, we're just trying to do our jobs to the best of our abilities here. If you feel attacked personally, I apologize... Nobody has labled you a troublemaker. All we ask is that every post be respectful to every member. As you've learned, even Windows users read the Linux forums occasionally.

[Jeber]

Well said, GolfProRM, and absolutely correct. Correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but I believe you speak for the whole mod squad on this topic. We try to not "over-mod" ever, but when it comes to the old "MS vs. Linux" debate, perhaps we do tend toward the overly-cautious side. And we are making an effort to inform everyone as to why we make the decisions we do, so you'll understand that our sole aim is the good of all the members. We certainly don't intend to drive away any member for stating their opinions, but we do reserve the right to ask any member to alter a post, or remove it, if we feel it is not in keeping with the forum rules.SD's comment is excellent: "Just say "woops" sorry guys, i didn't mean it that way, and forget it!"

[jbredmound]

...and I have done that...twice. And, as this continues to occur, I begin to think, "Well, they should post in their language, and I'll try to find a translation tool, and I will try to use the translation tool, along with my intellect, to figure out what they are saying. And at all times, I will try to give the benefit of the doubt...because that is how I am...I don't believe that anyone really wants to flame me.I had my incident with Snoepie...what a gracious lady...but it turned out that some very immature folks turned what I said into a fire storm. I took a look at this situation; I, personally, have a 1st amendment, which primarily protects those who never intended to offend from consequences (ie, you can be arrested and jailed for shouting "fire" in a crowded theater), and I have a right to be innocent until proven guilty.From a "humanity" standpoint, I have every right to be understood, even if I am sometimes misguided (the way Snoepie did).Uff Da!!! Play nice, deal with people as people, and don't worry so much about whether or not you are being flamed...D***, don't they have debate clubs in Europe? I took way more "abuse" than this at the Arizona State Finals!

[teacher]

JBI need a translator for your post. I have a difficult time following it all the way through. I think I understand that: 1. You and Snoepie had a problem and worked it out while others got upset. 2. You have the right to say what you want and take the consequences. 3. You assume none would want to flame you. 4. You don't understand Europeans and how they debate. I still can't figure out your first paragraph. I have reread it five times and it makes no sense to me. Can you translate for me? Help! I'm just trying to understand.

[jbredmound]

...and I have done that...twice. And, as this continues to occur, I begin to think, "Well, they should post in their language, and I'll try to find a translation tool, and I will try to use the translation tool, along with my intellect, to figure out what they are saying. And at all times, I will try to give the benefit of the doubt...because that is how I am...I don't believe that anyone really wants to flame me.

First, I am very sensitive to those who are working in English as a second...third...fourth language. When we lived in the Southwestern US, my son spent his 1st and 2nd grades in bilingual classrooms, with me being one of the few bilingual parents...Language barriers need to be questioned, not attacked. Just because you did not understand what I (or anybody else) said, does not mean that it is in your best interests to begin your email campaign to the mods. I am not sure if any of the mods are bi (tri, quad, etc)-lingual, but I am fairly good at a romance language, so that means, with effort, I can make my needs known to sixty percent of the world's people.I am not intolerant of anyone's understanding of the "English" language, which may be the hardest language on Earth to figure out, but I am completely intolerant of anyone who will jump to a conclusion without checking out the intent first. That is true for "English-speakers" as well as others.I will ask you to remember something; I am an old war-dog psych nurse, and I have been there and done that, and I will not honor presumptions and affected slights (unless you share them with me, in which case I will mostl ;ilikely apologize).

[GolfProRM]

JB,I understand your point of view (don't jump to conclusions about a person's intent until they tell you their intent), but in a text-based forum where someone has the freedom to post and then may not check back with the board for awhile, we're not always left with the option of waiting for the person's true intent to be heard. And as much as we'd like to say it doesn't happen, people do jump to conclusions. It's very hard to tell sometimes if someone has malicious intent with a post, as there's no good way to add emotion to a post. We moderators aren't bad people (at least I hope not ). Our job is to make sure the forum rules are followed and that people aren't offended by other posts. While you may look for true intent before making judgments, not everyone does. Especially since we're dealing with a very international group. What may seem harmless to one of us could be very insulting to another. This is the issue we have to deal with. If we tend to err on the side of the possibly offended, it's by design. We'd hate for someone to get upset over a post that may not have been of malicious intent, but might come off that way. As we've said, it's nothing personal against any members on the board. We like all of you very much and the board wouldn't be anything without you all here. Our entire goal is to make it an enjoyable place for all.

[Jeber]

...and I have done that...twice. And, as this continues to occur, I begin to think, "Well, they should post in their language, and I'll try to find a translation tool, and I will try to use the translation tool, along with my intellect, to figure out what they are saying. And at all times, I will try to give the benefit of the doubt...because that is how I am...I don't believe that anyone really wants to flame me.

OK, let's see what we have here...(all translations are mine, and may not reflect accurately jb's meaning)..."...and I have done that...twice."...I believe twice he has said, "Oops, sorry guys, I didn't mean it that way...", as mentioned in SD's post. "And, as this continues to occur, I begin to think, "Well, they should post in their language, and I'll try to find a translation tool, and I will try to use the translation tool, along with my intellect, to figure out what they are saying." ...Both times this has happened (Snoopie and Bruno) have been due to a language barrier, or failure to properly translate the English idioms into a foreign language. May I suggest, instead of a translation tool, perhaps "plain speak" would suffice. "And at all times, I will try to give the benefit of the doubt...because that is how I am...I don't believe that anyone really wants to flame me."...He is presuming the good intent of the other poster, since he doesn't believe they are trying to flame him. I agree. OK, for those of you who asked, I have given my own interpretation of jbredmound's first paragraph. Since this wasn't in code, I can't vouch for the accuracy. Now for a friendly comment to jbredmound, and all those who post, (this is a conversation some of us mod's had not long ago)...humor writing, or humorous writing, is perhaps the hardest kind to pull off. Speech allows for all kind of nuances, facial expressions, body language...many ways to let the audience know that "this is a joke!". But when written, humor must be more obvious, less subtitle, and written in such a way as to establish that "this is a joke". This is hard enough among people with a common language. When you try to present humor to an international audience (as we have here in the forums), it becomes so difficult that it's almost impossible. Your humor becomes restricted to the simplest English possible and common, well-known metaphors. The usual problem with international humor is that by it's nature, humor reflects the "common experience" of the audience. Again, this is easiest among a group of people with a common experience to draw from...say, life in the same country. The other problem I've encountered in humor writing is what I call "mean spiritedness" (not a real word). Many stand-up comics, including my hero George Carlin, make a living essentially insulting their audience. It's a real trick to pull off without offending people. It's at least ten times harder in print. To "soften" the humor, I find that turning the joke back on oneself often does the trick. Make fun of yourself, people laugh. Make fun of someone else, people often get offended.I didn't mean to go on for so long...but I wanted to make the point that 1) it can help prevent misunderstandings to speak plainly and avoid humor in situations where it might be confusing, and 2) humor should be used with caution, especially in the written form. When dealing with people from different backgrounds and different countries, and trying to convey a serious point, humor should not be considered as the first choice. And if humor is used, it should be clearly announced.[/mini-tutorial] Please deposit $5 in the jar by the door on your way out! And if all you members want to avoid having an admitted amateur interpreter try to debug your posts, please follow my advice above.

[jbredmound]

We moderators aren't bad people (at least I hope not ).  As we've said, it's nothing personal against any members on the board.  We like all of you very much and the board wouldn't be anything without you all here.  Our entire goal is to make it an enjoyable place for all.

The moderators are anything but bad people...as a matter of fact, I do not believe that I have have met any bad people here. I am, however, disaffected here, as in a sense of not belonging, or not being able to communicate. This is disturbing as I know very well that I can communicate.I'm not going to get caught up in this; I don't get paid enough to deal with this (typical American)."Good Luck, and God Bless!" (-Red Skelton-)

[SonicDragon]

Humm.... i didn't want to get caught up in this...

I'm not going to get caught up in this; I don't get paid enough to deal with this (typical American).

That's the sort of thing that get's people mad at eachother. And people do take offence to comments like that. Now, like Jeber was saying, that could be humor... but it's not coming off that way to me.

[Cluttermagnet]

I've found I like something about pretty much everyone who posts in this forum. Even those who take the opposite viewpoint are seen as friends and their comments carefully read for meaning (overt or covert). For me, this venue has a definitely friendly tone, despite occasional spirited debates or even those rare, seemingly sharp disagreements. I can at times get drawn into those things myself, so I always remind myself to try for clarity and good cheer in my writings. But then sometimes I just have to light into MS because they make such a great target, being an "8,000 pound gorrilla". Sometimes this gets me in trouble with MS loyalists. Well, I may slam MS at times, but so far I am still using their OS. How can you help that? Windows is everywhere, and is the platform I learned on. In time, I will add Linux skills, but I bet I continue to use Windows for certain things.I know pretty much how jb might have felt, though I did not see his original post. Sometimes I get censored on one of my hobby tech related newsgroups that deals with an esoteric area of radio communications. The moderator usually has a strong bias towards limiting debate if it gets to feeling even just a little bit personal. I think he overreacts and occasionally wields somewhat of an iron fist- but his service to the group overall so far outweighs this minor area in which we disagree that I have just let it go and lived with his shortcomings. But it has definitely hurt my feelings to have him dump a few of my emails and not post them to the group. I got irritated enough that I emailed him on several occasions and presented polite arguments as to why he should lighten up on the censorship, all to no avail. The guy is unmovable. What has occasionally made it worse is that he applies his rules inconsistently and seems to give undue deference to certain individuals and too little leeway to others.I got pretty outraged one time when this moderator allowed another member to flay me publically for behaviors I have never even engaged in. Frankly, I think that guy got me confused with some others, perhaps a composite 'other', based on an innnocent comment I made. I just happened to be a convenient target when his own festering resentments surfaced, so he took his frustrations out on me unfairly. I wrote a firm but polite rebuttal, which was posted, but was later angry at myself for 'playing nice' to his boorish loudmouth and not giving it back to him in kind. I won't make that mistake again. Some of the most savage beatings I ever suffered were self-inflicted. I was essentially damning myself with faint praise, and really should have given him 'both barrels' (pulled both triggers on shotgun). Later I tried to insert just a little zinger in another email and got nailed for that. It was very frustrating and certainly did hurt my feelings, as I had written only the mildest of sarcasm which would do no more than remind only a select few others of the incident- and that his having been given free rein made that venue a little less safe. I still harbor a resentment about the experience a year later, and only regret that I did not defend myself better against a scurrilous and unwarranted attack. So yes, I understand how it feels to be "disaffected". My particular censor comes across to me as somewhat of a petty dictator, and a capricious one at that. The lesson I came away with is that moderators who _suspend_ questionable posts initially instead of just dumping them, and then dialog with the writer to try to negotiate better-considered phrasing, will usually get a friendly and cooperative response 99+ percent of the time. Because, as all have pointed out, there was no malice here to begin with, and none was assumed. I'm a big fan of flexibility, also of allowing enough time for things to sort out. This is not a criticism, but only a suggestion- based on my own experiences.

[SonicDragon]

I got pretty outraged one time when this moderator allowed another member to flay me publically for behaviors I have never even engaged in. Frankly, I think that guy got me confused with some others, perhaps a composite 'other', based on an innnocent comment I made. I just happened to be a convenient target when his own festering resentments surfaced, so he took his frustrations out on me unfairly. I wrote a firm but polite rebuttal, which was posted, but was later angry at myself for 'playing nice' to his boorish loudmouth and not giving it back to him in kind. I won't make that mistake again.

Like i said, we've all been there, in newsgroups or forums, and we have to make that desition of how harsh to be, and it is not always an easy one.

[Prelude76]

moderating forums is a fine line, i'm sure. and these mods do it on their own time for free, and have to deal with issue after issue. personally, i dont know how you mods WANT to do this for free. but i think it boils down to how MUCH moderation/censorship is applied. and the bigger a forum gets, the more problems like this will arise. but you need SOME form of censorship. Take a look at neowin.net. as soon as someone posts an opinion, you get a whole bunch of STFU responses (for those unaware, stands for "Shut The ___ Up"). it's way out of hand and the certain topics are unpostable for those reasons. then again, i personally feel that sometimes this board get a bit over-censored, (such as not even being able to mention certain P2P programs by name) and thats just my feeling on it, and though i respect the censoring since this is a free forum and the mods are working for free on their own time to help out Scot, i know this censoring will become too much of a burden as this forum grows. just something to think about.as for flame wars, you can usually spot certain posts which are not really opinions but more rants to try to upset the greatest amount of people. like posting "Linux Sux!" in linux forum, or "mozilla sucks!" in mozilla forum. flame wars suck and usually lead a crappy forum.

[Jeber]

Good points, Cluttermagnet. This is turning into a worthwhile discussion on the subject of moderation. One thing I think all the members should know (and might help erase some of your concerns):In almost every case of a questionable post, it isn't deleted...it's moved to a "Questionable Post" (clever title, don't 'ya think?) section of the mod area. There, the admin's and mod's have a chance to read the post and come to an agreement about what action to take. Usually most of the mod squad will make suggestions then action will be taken as soon as possible. Only occasionally are we forced to do something without being able to discuss it. Even then, there's a lot of post-mortum analysis. So for the most part, any action taken by one mod or admin is supported by the whole squad.This forum has the most involved and co-operative moderators I've found in any forum. And some of the friendliest and smartest members. We all want to keep it that way. That's our common goal.

[nlinecomputers]

Ok Lousy Moderators Suck! Fortunantly we don't seem to have that problem here. Our mods most of the time tend to do a good job. They can be a tad over cautious about some things but when your dealing with large groups of people from varried backgrounds and even places on the Earth I would be too. Also there is a tendency in forums for people to be to blunt. They say things publicly on a forum that they would not speak in private to someone. Somehow without the feedback of a voice or bodylanguage people tend to say things without realizing how the comment comes across. So the mods have to try and filter this. It isn't a great solution but the best we've got. Slashdot tries to do by the moderation point system. Everypost can be read but "good" posts get modded up so that they are easier to find. Problem is that most of the people moderating over there will mod you troll simply because they disagree with you. A perfectly polite, will rounded arguement that goes against the grain of the majority gets stomped on. It breeds a totally different and hostile enviorment. One that isn't friendly like this place is most of the time.

[BoardFlak]

First of all, I would just like to say to Cluttermagnet that I , for one, applaud and appreciate his restrained response to an attack. Had I been there to read the actual post and reply, I am sure I would have said the same then as well. A reasoned response to personal attack is something of a rarity, and that is a shame. If more people were capable of responding to bluster with calm and to attacks with sanity, there would be much less need for discussions such as this one, because situations would never get out of hand. The reasonable people would - politely - smother the loudmouths and personal attackers into uncomfortable silence. Cluttermagnet, there should be more restrained responses, not fewer. My advice for any forum would be thus: no matter what you think the other person is saying, and no matter how offended you feel, take four steps:1. Stop. Take another look. Ask yourself if it is the posted statement or your reaction to it which is making you mad. Is the statement a reasonable one from their point of view? 2. Stop. Look at the reply you want to make. Is it a reasonable statement of your own point of view? Will it contribute to overall understanding or just make more people as mad as you are? 3. Stop. Did you answer the statement or the person making it? There is a difference. Even if you view their statement as purest idiocy, answering them with your own idiocy is not a constructive solution. 4. Stop. Look at your typed post. Imagine if you were a reader three months in the future coming in to read the whole thread in its entirety. Keeping in mind that this fictional person will only know about you what you have written, do you want them to form their opinion of you from this post? If you cannot get past even one of the four stops, then do not make the post, and do not make that post until you can get past all four.Finally (this is a joke), this thread is notable for the longest coherent statement from Jeber that I have seen in the water cooler since I have been here (end of joke).

[SonicDragon]

Good advice

[Cluttermagnet]

This forum has the most involved and co-operative moderators I've found in any forum.  And some of the friendliest and smartest members.  We all want to keep it that way.  That's our common goal.

Right, Jeber-It sure does, and that makes for a really interesting forum with a great ambience. I have come across a few that, while interesting, had a sort of wild west mood, where drinking and arguing inevitably erupted into gunfights- er, flame wars. BTW let me add my congratulations too, for that particularly long and coherent paragraph of yours! LOL Watch out- if it continues growing, at some point they will go get your grandpa's hunting rifle and try to shoot its headlights out. :lol:I just enjoy everybody's comments so much, most of the time, and I want jb to know that I have particularly appreciated some of his comments- the kind that often lead to a belly laugh or a knowing nod of the head. Diversity and unity are a rare combination. I think we have some of that here. It's been a great ride, so far. I'm looking foreward to more.As the Firesign Theatre wrote so presciently over 30 years ago: "On behalf of ... socialist republics, I am pleased to sign this jazzy document. We too want peace (piece) [dramatic pause] ... of Nigeria" Er- well, I think it's the other way around, this century. I keep sending money to Uncle Nikromowaziki, but he just keeps wiring back for more- and I have yet to see any sign of a large deposit in my account...

[beeTee]

Hi everyone, I'm getting in here a little late, been off work and in-laws are in for a couple of weeks!!! I want to make a comment about this being an English speaking forum, with international members. (ok, it turned out to be a lecture)

...and I have done that...twice. And, as this continues to occur, I begin to think, "Well, they should post in their language, and I'll try to find a translation tool, and I will try to use the translation tool, along with my intellect, to figure out what they are saying. And at all times, I will try to give the benefit of the doubt...because that is how I am...I don't believe that anyone really wants to flame me......

Where I'm coming from: I'm a native English speaker (American) who has been living outside of the USA for, oh, 13 years. I live in Germany now and am slowly but surely getting a better grasp on the language, thanks to raising our daughter bi-lingual. I have to tell you, JB, that posting in the original language then translating with a program just doesn't work. for one, Slang, in any form just doesn't translate. Humor, metaphors, idioms, etc. are the final steps of learning a language and the most advanced level. Even if you have one of the best translator programs available (I do), it just doesn't cut it. (for instance, the last 5 words, simple as it is, would be translated poorly, if at all).When I come "home" for a visit, the native speaking is what I enjoy the most. No matter how good my German gets (which my wife will tell you it won't) I will NEVER be able to get inside jokes and the like in German. (and if you filter in Dialects, you can really forget it.) Our humor and idioms, more often than not, define us as a people. My "personality" is diminished living in another culture and language, due to the fact I can NOT participate in a rich native conversation, and when I DO have the chance to speak my native language, it has to be pared down into nice neat little phrases that won't be misunderstood.I currently work on a international team of about 10 guys (unfortunately, there aren't many ladies in this field ): 2 from Romania, 2 from Turkey, 2 Germans, a Spaniard, an Argentinian, and an Italian. English is the Prime Language. I have to constantly tell people, "HEY, THAT WAS A JOKE!!!!!" or "MAN, that was FUNNY, don't you get it??" then explain the joke. It can be very frustrating, but there is also a level of sharing that can not be had in a "one language, one culture" environment. We usually get a kick out of our misunderstandings, or explanations of why things are funny in our own countries.OH YEAH!!!! just remembered what I really wanted to write: Different language have their strong and weak points in different areas. For example, there are things we say in english that are really colorful and elequent. When it is translated into German, it becomes gray and flat. There is just no good translation. For example, there is NO good translation for "awesome". the closest thing (I've found) is "Cool", which is stolen from Fonsie in the first place). Also, there are words and phrases in German that don't have any meaning in English. Someone like Bruno (sorry to bring you up here, but you can always Edit ), who is at least tri-lingual, can communicate exceedingly well in English (and problaby Flemish, but that's another story) (see, there was a joke that you Americans will NEVER understand). btw, the Dutch speak better English than anyone in the world (second language that is)And finally, I will end this ramble on the note of Sarcasm. People, when you are sarcastic, please use the or something to let us know. I don't like to bring up names so much, I think Prelude76 won't mind in this case. The guy can be very sarcastic, and sometimes I need many re-reads to figure out what he is saying. There is many times an edge to his opening phrases that I wonder " just what the **** does he MEAN by that????" I'm sure many of the international folks have a hard time with his humor. however, the quality of his posts is very informative. Also, Age has a lot to do with what people think is funny. What's funny to a 22 year old is not not necessarily funny to a 35 - 45 year old. There are a lot of 20 - 25 year olders here on the forum, and us, uh, more seasoned folk know that and don't get offended by some off-handed comments. anyone over 35 knows, that a person doesn't find out they don't know ANYTHING until around 25!! Once you realize that you don't know anything, life is a lot different. I don't know what jong357 posted that was "so offending", but I hope he doesn't go. His insights have been helpful to me on many occasion.Windows users: Are you really so faithful to Mr. Gates and his empire?? You will stand up and "fight" for him in public?? Get real.... The man could end poverty in our country at the flick of a wrist. How many altruistic actions have you heard about lately from ole Bill ?Linux users: just remember, karma exists, and the Wheel will come round for** Greed is evil, and will therefore be repaid in full. If you want to poke at someone, point it at Dubya. Now there is someone who needs a good swift kick in the A__. of course, it'll probably knock him unconcious. For you international, English as a second language reader, I apologize for my use of slang and idioms, you can always PM me for clarification, which I reccomend for ANYone to do any time they are fuzzy about a post.

[havnblast]

I really have to envy those that are bi-lingual and more. All I really know is English and I don't think twice about it. I did take two years of German in high school many moons ago and it still amazes me at how they put the verb at the end of the sentence. I know other countries take a look at our spellings of words and go tsk..., but to me that is the only way I knew how to spell it - color vs. colour and so on. I remember in college one of my teachers was telling us that communication is the hardest thing to do; to be able to interpret exactly what the speaker says is no easy thing. I thought the teacher was crazy at first till I started thinking about this and reflecting it on to my own life and seeing how many time miscommunication has occured. Wow that teacher was absolutely right!

[Prelude76]

Windows users:  Are you really so faithful to Mr. Gates and his empire??  You will stand up and "fight" for him in public??  Get real.... The man could end poverty in our country at the flick of a wrist.  How many altruistic actions have you heard about lately from ole Bill ?

actually, he did donate several million dollars to fight AIDS in India recently, but when big corporations donate a few million, its like us donating a buck. besides, they mostly do it to get tax credits or to win over favors (maybe get prime real estate in India for their tech support relocation efforts? just a theory)but i noticed the more money people have, the more they hold on to it. a friend of mine delieverd pizza for a while, and the rich $500,000+ homes he went to generally left little or no tips, while going to a townhouse complex in a rougher part of town got him $5 tip. actually, wasn't there a story recently where bill gates stiffed a waitress in the midwest by leaving no tip?dont know where i'm going with this post. just rambling. Edited July 24, 2003 by Prelude76

[littlebone]

actually, he did donate several million dollars to fight AIDS in India recently, but when big corporations donate a few million, its like us donating a buck.  besides, they mostly do it to get tax credits or to win over favors (maybe get prime real estate in India for their tech support relocation efforts?  just a theory)

Not that I think Bill Gates needs my defense...He was on Bill Moyer's Now program about a month ago, discussing AIDS in India. Even though the donations come from the "Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation" administered by his father, Gates was extremely knowledgeable about AIDS in the third world. He had done his homework on this issue, which leads me to guess that he feels strongly about this.

[Prelude76]

public relationsn : a promotion intended to create goodwill for a person or institution

might be that Gates spend his free time researching on third world AIDS problems. might be a PR stunt. i'm not saying which it is, since i don't know him personally.