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Browser speed & web standards


Marsden11

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FF still lags in speed tests across all platforms...
Yes, certainly. But I think it's acceptable to use instead of IE ;)I think I read somewhere that it has something to do with it being written in XUL. Does that mean has some extra API layer or something?
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Firefox does everything faster than IE. Pages load faster and I don't see a lag in speed. If it was not faster and more secure than IE , I would not be using it.

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In Conclusion:So overall, Opera seems to be the fastest browser for windows. Firefox is not faster than Internet Explorer, except for scripting, but for standards support, security and features, it is a better choice. However, it is still not as fast as Opera, and Opera also offers a high level of standards support, security and features.On Linux, Konqueror is the fastest for starting and viewing basic pages on KDE, but as soon as script or images are involved, or you want to use the back or forward buttons, or if you use Gnome, Opera is a faster choice, even though on KDE it will take a few seconds longer to start. Mozilla and Firefox give an overall good performance, but their script, cache handling and image-based page speed still cannot compare with Opera.On Mac OS X, Opera and Safari are both very fast, with Safari 2 being faster at starting and rendering CSS, but with Opera still being distinguishably faster for rendering tables, scripting and history (especially compared with the much slower Safari 1.2). Camino is fast to start, but then it joins its sisters Mozilla and Firefox further down the list. Neither Mozilla, Firefox nor IE perform very well on Mac, being generally slower than on other operating systems.
Browser Speed ComparisonsI guess for some speed is in the eye of the viewer... I think the tests are spot on...
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Personally, I've never been bothered by the speed of Firefox. I guess my computers have always been fast enough to make the differences negligible.From that page,

Hardware; 800 MHz Intel Pentium 3, 256 MB RAM.
If you ran it on a faster machine, I think the results would be much closer for everyone. I'm not saying that those kind of machines aren't still out there, or that people are wrong to say Opera is fast, or Firefox is slow, I'm just saying that with a faster machine, the difference is less.I'm still a proponent of "Use whatever browser you want, as long as it's not IE" :)
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The speed of the hardware is irrelevant. The point of the tests were to show what was slow and what was fast. Running on the latest and greatest hardware and you still have slow browsers compared to the fast ones.The test scores change but the results are still the same...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Like Gary said, do you even need to question why Firefox/Opera are better alternatives to IE? Until IE respects web standard XHTML I will always recommend Firefox/Opera over it any day. I have been using Firefox 1.5 on my notebook for a week and a half now and I have not found any bugs with it. And it definitely renders pages faster than 1.07. But for me, that's secondary because, as a web designer, the Web Developer extension for Firefox is why I will never use IE as my default web browser.

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...But for me, that's secondary because, as a web designer, the Web Developer extension for Firefox is why I will never use IE as my default web browser.
Wow! I hadn't heard of this extension before. I just installed it, and it looks to be very handy -- thanks Peachy! :hmm: Edited by epp_b
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To pronounce CSS as the only way to code is just silly. No offense to your web efforts but looking at your site reminds me of just about everyone else coding blogs in CSS. You may be in exact CSS standards compliance but the overall visual style is bland.I would love to show you my work but unfortunately it is proprietary and my NDA does not allow me to show it to others outside the company I contract with.I will only say they are the largest HMO on the planet. They are not overly concerned with web standards as my work pertains to inside the company facilities management system across the country and HI.I'm given a problem to provide data to employees who clean facilities. From hospitals to MOBs (medical office buildings. There are anywhere from 17 to 47 types of spaces (rooms). In each of those spaces there are various materials and surfaces which each requiring a specific cleaning method and cleaning material protocol.Adherence to exact CSS standards was not a consideration. Ease of use for employees was paramount so that any employee regardless of whether or not they had prior cleaning experience would be able to access the relevant cleaning data for any room they were tasked to clean.I believe in coding to provide solutions... not in following the latest web standard craze...

Edited by Marsden11
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No doubt great sites. Fox and Sprint are combos of CSS and Tables... one level down on Sprint anyway.How about the high traffic sites like www.microsoft.com? It is also a combo of CSS and Tables.None on your list are considered huge traffic sites.page-views-ms_adobe.jpgpage-views-ms_sprint.jpgpage-views-ms_cingular.jpgAnd certainly no where near the number 2 site only behind www.yahoo.com.page-views-msn.jpgIndeed, traffic is no indication of quality of coding but if people were not finding what they were looking for, they would be looking elsewhere.

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I have to agree with Marsden here on the tables vs. CSS arguments.I still find tables to be very structured and straight-forward way of developing layouts. CSS is without-a-doubt a very handy tool. I see it as a way to define global styles so that it is easy to change where it is necessary for modular and scalable web tools. But, I really don't think that CSS should be recognized as the only means of definining layouts.

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But my point is you don't NEED to use tables to define a layout. CSS can do all the layout for you. That's its beauty. Tables should only be used for displaying tabular data. Web designers should not use html tags not for their designed purpose. How hard can it be to use h1, h2, and h3 to differentiate your headings from your body text? Don't like the default heading sizes? Use CSS to set it to your pleasure. I recognize that automated content management systems may prevent a web developer from doing so, but then they should be pushing the vendor to change it.

Edited by Peachy
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Guest LilBambi

Yes, and when your company changes their colors, wishes a new design, or changes names, the css can be changed and all the content is still there and in tact.How easy is that?I still use tables with some sites, but have gravitated toward css for many new sites myself for the simplicity of maintaining a site no matter what changes are needed.I stilll do like Dreamweaver's templates too though. :)And still code pages by hand as well.So it's not a problem for me either way.However, that said, I really hate sites that are IE centric. They are not cross platform and not every client who uses a particular business will be using IE exclusively....or even Windows.It is in my opinion very short sighted for companies to allow their web designers to negate an entire population of users.Just try some corporate sites in any other OS or browser and you will see what I mean.It's as bad as FEMA's short sightedness during Hurricane Katrina IMHO.This is just my opinion and of course others opinion may vary.I am not discrediting anyone else's opinion, just stating my own.Thank you Cliff for bringing this to our attention. There are many folks that have upgraded through the Microsoft 'recommended' path and may be experiencing the same problems.We may have to split this topic into two different topics and move one to Web development if we continue to discuss this side topic here.

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Here is the CSS code for Yahoo.com

a:link{color:#039;text-decoration:none;}a:hover{color:#0353a5;}a:visited{color:#800080;text-decoration:none;}a:hover{text-decoration:underline;}.s{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;font:bold 77% verdana;background:#f7dc88;color:#630;border:1px solid #BE9A27;}.s2{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;font:bold 77% verdana;color:#000;background:#ddd;}.b{background:transparent;}.nw{vertical-align:top;margin-top:2px;}.np{cursor:auto;}.c{clear:both;font-size:1%;}.hr,.cl{clear:both;}.n{text-align:right;float:none;}.iemw{display:none;}#h{background:#F2F2F2;border-bottom:1px solid #D9D9D9;padding:2px 10px;display:none;}#hm{display:none;float:left;font:bold 77% verdana;}#tb{display:none;right:0;font-weight:normal;}#dc{position:relative;}#shpd{display:none;}.shdw{-moz-border-radius:4px;background:#ccc;z-index:1000;position:absolute;top:1.5em;left:1.5em;}#shpd .bd{border:1px solid #4333BC;-moz-border-radius:4px;width:360px;background:#fff;position:relative;top:-2px;left:-2px;z-index:1001;color:#333;}#pnt{position:absolute;top:-6px;left:30%;width:11px;height:6px;font-size:0px;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/shpa1.gif);}#shpd .shp{width:40px;height:37px;font-size:0px;line-height:0px;top:10px;left:10px;display:block;position:absolute;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/ydrag.gif);}.shp strong{display:none;}#shpd ol{margin:9px 9px 9px 60px;padding:0 0 0 1.5em;*padding:0;}#shpd li{padding:0;}#shpd .hr{border-color:#ccc;margin:0 19px 5px;}#shpd p{font:normal 77% verdana;margin:0 9px 9px;text-align:center;}#m{position:relative;height:52px;margin:10px 0;clear:both;z-index:999;text-align:center;}#m br{display:none;}#m a{white-space:nowrap;font:normal 77% verdana;color:#333;}#m span{text-align:center;position:absolute;top:0;width:90px;line-height:77%;white-space:nowrap;}#m img{display:block;font-weight:normal;color:#333;margin:0 auto;}#m span img{width:36px;height:36px;margin:0 auto 3px;}#m span em{padding:0 5px;white-space:nowrap;_height:1px;cursor:hand;cursor:pointer;}#m h1 img{margin:0 auto;}#md{position:absolute;left:0;top:0;z-index:110;border:1px solid #cecece;}#md a{padding:0 2px 0 1px;text-decoration:none;color:#6b6b6b;}#m1{left:0;}#m2{left:6.9em}#m3{left:13.65em}#m4{right:13.65em}#m5{right:6.9em}#m6{right:0;}#m #m1 img,#m #m2 img,#m #m3 img{_margin:0 auto;}#m span em{margin-left:-12px;_margin:0;}.plinkc{padding:0 6px;position:absolute;height:12px;_height:1px;_position:relative;_margin:3px 0 0;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/pldn3.gif) no-repeat;z-index:900;}.plinkc:hover{background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/plhv3.gif);}.plinka .plinkc,.plinka .plinkc:hover{background:#FFF8AD url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/plup3.gif) no-repeat;}.plinka em{background:#FFF8AD;}#bl{position:absolute;background:#666;top:52px;left:0;text-align:left;font-size:107%;z-index:901;}#bl span{text-align:left;}#bl div.shade{background:#666;width:10.1em;}#bl div.pllist{border:1px solid #ccc;height:375px;background:#fff;z-index:40;position:relative;top:-1px;left:1px;width:10.1em;text-align:left;}#bl a{display:block;color:#000;padding:2px 10px;text-decoration:none;}#bl a:hover{background-color:#336ECA;color:#fff;}#bl .hilite{background:#336ECA url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/chkw.gif) 2px 50% no-repeat;color:#fff;}#bl .checked{background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/chk.gif) 2px 50% no-repeat;}#bl .checked:hover{background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/chkw.gif);}#bl a.more{font:bold 72% verdana;color:#000;}#bl a.more:hover{color:#fff;}#bl a.moreclicked{border-bottom:1px solid #ccc;margin-bottom:4px;background:none;height:0;font-size:0px;line-height:0px;}.hr{margin:5px 0;border-top:1px solid #ccc;}#v{position:relative;color:#999;height:1.5em;border:1px solid #CFCFCF;border-bottom-width:0;z-index:5;margin-bottom:-1px;}#c{text-align:right;float:left;width:12.5em;margin:3px 10px 0 0;font:normal 77% arial;color:#333;}#v a{position:relative;float:left;padding:1px 7px 2px;color:#039;}#v em{float:left;margin:2px 0;background:#989898;width:1px;height:1.25em;font-size:84%;}#v #e1{background:#fff;}#v .o:hover{background:#eee}#v .h:hover{text-decoration:none}#v .h{font-weight:bold;margin:-3px 0 0;padding:3px 6px 2px;background:#0075eb;border:1px solid #054576;color:#fff;}#v .h b{margin:1.35em 0 0 .65em;width:11px;height:11px;background-color:transparent;background-repeat:no-repeat;position:absolute;}.v1 #ss{background:#d2e4fc;border-color:#75a3ed;}.v1 #v .h b{background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_web2.gif);}.v2 #ss{background:#fcd2d2;border-color:#ed7575;}.v2 #v .h{background:#a10303;border-color:#662626;}.v2 #v .h b{margin-left:1.15em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_img2.gif);}.v3 #ss{background:#F9D3FA;border-color:#B863B4;}.v3 #v .h{background:#B01FAA;border-color:#760473;}.v3 #v .h b{margin-left:1em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/tri_web3.gif);}.v4 #ss{background:#fce8d2;border-color:#d9681a;}.v4 #v .h{background:#d95000;border-color:#96450c;}.v4 #v .h b{margin-left:1.6em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_dir2.gif);}.v5 #ss{background:#FCEBB9;border-color:#EC9E2E;}.v5 #v .h{background:#EC9E2E;border-color:#B28B12;}.v5 #v .h b{margin-left:1em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_yp3.gif);}.v5 #ss{padding:9px 0 2px;}.v5 #ip{margin-top:-7px;}.v5 #sw{padding-top:.6em;}.v5 #sn{padding-top:.4em;}.v6 #ss{background:#e2defc;border-color:#9b72cf;}.v6 #v .h{background:#501fb2;border-color:#16165e;}.v6 #v .h b{margin-left:.85em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_news2.gif);}.v7 #ss{background:#eefcd2;border-color:#9fbe4c;}.v7 #v .h{background:#549400;border-color:#3d4c14;}.v7 #v .h b{margin-left:1.7em;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nt/gr/search/tri_prod2.gif);}#s{margin-bottom:7px}#ss{border:1px solid #99B9E3;background:#D2E4FC;padding:8px 0;}#ss label{cursor:auto;}#ss span.f{margin-right:10px;}#sw{text-align:right;padding-top:3px;width:9.5em;font:bold 100% arial;}#in{padding-top:1.1em;}#ld{height:1.8em;line-height:.9em;font-size:65%;_line-height:1em;}#ld a{position:relative;}#ld div{width:10.5em;margin-right:-10px;position:relative;}#ld div img{_position:absolute;top:25%;}#ss #bss{width:42%;}#ss #acs{width:48%;margin-right:0;}#fp,#csz{width:100%;}#st{width:10em;position:relative;margin:1px 0 0;}#fs{border:0;padding:0;margin:0;}#ip{width:50.7%;}#ip label{font:normal 77% verdana;}#dc{min-width:760px;width:56.4em;text-align:left;margin:0 auto;}#dc h2 .f{color:#000;}#c1{min-width:440px;width:58%;float:left;}#c2{min-width:300px;width:42%;float:right;}#em,#n,#w,#k,#g,#tg,#as{margin-left:19px;}#mm,#y,#wm,#e,#eb,#b,#mo,#em,#n,#w,#k,#g,#tg,#as{margin-bottom:10px;}h2{background:#d2e4fc;padding:1px 9px 2px;font:bold 100% arial;}h2 .m{margin-top:2px}#c2 h2{background:#9B72CF;}#c2 h2 .f{color:#fff;}.l,.r{border:1px solid #d2e4fc;background:#fff;}.r{border-color:#9B72CF;background:#F1F1FD;}.ct{padding:9px;}.ct .f{margin-right:10px;}.u{width:24.9%;}.b{width:49.9%;}.q{width:65%;}.ybl{width:47.5%;}.ybr{width:52.5%;}.u,.b,.d,.q,.q2,.f{float:left;}.q a,.q2 a,.b a,.d a,.u a{display:block;}.m{float:right;font:bold 77% verdana;}.mr{display:block;clear:both;font:bold 77% verdana;}#t{text-align:center;margin-bottom:7px;color:#666;}#t table{margin:0 auto;right:0;}#y.l{border:0;}#y .ct{background:#F2F5F7;border:1px solid #D0E4FD;border-top:0;}#y em{color:#999;}#y h2{border:1px solid #D2E4FC;padding:1px 9px;background:#fff;}#y h2.so{border-left:0;}#y .ct .mr{margin:6px 0 0 3px;}#y .u a{line-height:1.15em;}#y .so a{text-decoration:underline;font-weight:bold;}.so .f{font-weight:normal;}.so .m{margin-top:-1px;padding-top:1px;font:normal 100% arial;}#y .so .f{width:auto;}#y .so img{position:relative;float:left;margin:-7px 5px -3px -8px;left:-1px;}.si .f a{color:#000;}.si em{margin:0 2px;}.si .m{margin-left:-10px;white-space:nowrap;font:normal 77% verdana;float:right;margin-top:2px;}.si .m #om{padding:3px 0 2px 31px;margin-top:-3px;}.ym{background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/pim/newmail1.gif) no-repeat;}.nm{background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/pim/nomail1.gif) no-repeat;}.si span{color:#f60;margin:0 -2px;}.si .m a{position:relative;}.si .m b{margin:0;}#y a.ps{position:relative;top:-1px;font:normal 77% verdana;}#y a.ps:link,#y a.ps:visited{color:#039;}#yb{min-width:213px;width:48.45%;margin:0;float:left;}#yb .ct{padding:9px 0 9px 9px;}#yf{min-width:213px;width:48.45%;margin:0;float:right;}#mm{height:5.3em;}#mm h2 a{color:#000;}#b table{width:auto;}.lh{line-height:92%;}#nw{color:#fff;}#n cite{color:#000;}#n input{font-size:100%;}#n td{line-height:1.1em;}#n .m{font-weight:normal;}#mt .s2{padding:0 3px;}#nf,#nl,#mt{margin-top:5px;padding:2px 0 1px;border-top:1px solid #ddd;}#nl{padding:5px 0 0;font:bold 77% verdana;}#mt{position:static;}#mt .f{margin-top:4px;font:normal 77% verdana;}#mt .m form{white-space:nowrap;}.up{color:#090;}.dn{color:#D52D2D;}#w{position:relative;clear:both;}#w .mr{margin:5px 0 0;font:normal 100% verdana;}#w .s2{padding:0 3px;font-size:100%;}#w .f a{color:#fff;}#ws{margin-top:9px;}#wd{margin:0 0 10px;}#w h2 .m{margin:0;}#w .ct .f{white-space:nowrap;margin-top:4px;}#wa span{display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}#w #wa{color:#f00;background:transparent;}#w span.wa{margin:0;}#ws{float:left;}#w .b img{float:left;}#z{clear:both;}.wa{clear:both;display:block;}#wf{padding:0 0 1px;margin:0 0 2px 0;}#w h3{margin:0 0 4px 0;}#z{width:60%;float:left;padding:5px 5px 5px 45px;margin:5px 0;background:transparent url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/trfc_bckt.gif) no-repeat;}#ca{color:#fff;display:none;float:left;padding:1px 16px 0 0;margin-top:1px;border:0;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/my/el/ulm_btn_11px_l.gif) 100% 50% no-repeat;}#w .r{width:auto;background-image:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/my/el/ulm_btn_11px_d.gif);}#z input{width:100%;_font-size:107%;}#w select{width:115%;}#ls{border:1px solid #ccc;background:#fff;padding:5px;height:8em;overflow:auto;}#ls a{font:normal 115% arial;display:block;}#ls div{color:#000;}#ls .mr{padding:0 0 5px;font-weight:bold;}.wil a{margin-left:5px;}.wil div{font:bold 115% verdana;}#w b{font:bold 100% verdana;}#w .b a{font:normal 107% verdana;}#tr{padding:4px 0 0;margin-top:5px;padding:2px 0 1px;border-top:1px solid #ddd;}#tr h3{margin-bottom:3px;}#w h3 a{font-size:129%;}#tr a{font-size:107%;}.ef{font:normal 77% verdana;color:#039;}#w .ef a{color:#039;}#ex{display:none}#lc{font:normal 77% verdana;}#tg{color:#666;}#i{margin:0 auto;}#i i{font-weight:normal;}#i em{font-size:84%;}.x{float:left;}.sc{font-size:77%;}.hi,.lo{color:#DB8607;font:bold 114% arial;}.lo{color:#8595A2;}#g .m,#as .m{float:left;padding-top:5px;}#f{margin-top:4px;border-top:1px solid #ccc;font-size:100%;color:#666;}#f .m{right:0;}

Yea... I really want to manage all that... NOT!

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Guest LilBambi

I think you miss the point.That is ONE single file to change.Change the design in that one file, then...Name it correctly to match the old name, in the same location, on web servers that the change will be effective for and you get an entire new look across hundreds or thousands of webpages simply by changing one single file.Now that's cost effective.

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Here is the CSS code for Yahoo.com
a:link{color:#039;text-decoration:none;}a:hover{color:#0353a5;}a:visited{color:#800080;text-decoration:none;}a:hover{text-decoration:underline;}.s{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;font:bold 77% verdana;background:#f7dc88;color:#630;border:1px solid #BE9A27;}.s2{cursor:pointer;cursor:hand;font:bold 77% verdana;color:#000;background:#ddd;}.b{background:transparent;}.nw{vertical-align:top;margin-top:2px;}.np{cursor:auto;}.c{clear:both;font-size:1%;}.hr,.cl{clear:both;}.n{text-align:right;float:none;}.iemw{display:none;}#h{background:#F2F2F2;border-bottom:1px solid #D9D9D9;padding:2px 10px;display:none;}#hm{display:none;float:left;font:bold 77% verdana;}#tb{display:none;right:0;font-weight:normal;}#dc{position:relative;}#shpd{display:none;}.shdw{-moz-border-radius:4px;background:#ccc;z-index:1000;position:absolute;top:1.5em;left:1.5em;}#shpd .bd{border:1px solid #4333BC;-moz-border-radius:4px;width:360px;background:#fff;position:relative;top:-2px;left:-2px;z-index:1001;color:#333;}#pnt{position:absolute;top:-6px;left:30%;width:11px;height:6px;font-size:0px;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/shpa1.gif);}#shpd .shp{width:40px;height:37px;font-size:0px;line-height:0px;top:10px;left:10px;display:block;position:absolute;background:url(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/ww/ydrag.gif);}.shp strong{display:none;}#shpd ol{margin:9px 9px 9px 60px;padding:0 0 0 1.5em;*padding:0;}#shpd li{padding:0;}#shpd .hr{border-color:#ccc;margin:0 19px 5px;}#shpd p{font:normal 77% verdana;margin:0 9px 9px;text-align:center;}#m{position:relative;height:52px;margin:10px 0;clear:both;z-index:999;text-align:center;}#m br{display:none;}#m a{white-space:nowrap;font:normal 77% verdana;color:#333;}#m span{text-align:center;position:absolute;top:0;width:90px;line-height:77%;white-space:nowrap;}#m img{display:block;font-weight:normal;color:#333;margin:0 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Yea... I really want to manage all that... NOT!

What does the above have to do with the topic? Firefox CPU and RAM usage, Slows down because of CPU usageI missed this while splitting to this thread, sorry everyone--Neil (steeler_fan)NOTE: Neil, no worries, I got it. Bambi Edited by LilBambi
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Who ever said anything about being on-topic here? We're highlanders for crying out load! :) :w00t:Anyway, I have Norton Utilities monitoring my CPU activity. It gets up there (99%) at times, but I don't see it staying there constantly while using Firefox.

Edited by epp_b
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While page creators are free to do as they please, using tables for layout is wrong. I am very well familiar with the fact that it works, and is most likely easier (perhaps someone intimately familiar with CSS would argue otherwise, but who is that advanced? :) )The fact of the matter is this:The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) has published many Recommendations.

A W3C Recommendation is a specification or set of guidelines that, after extensive consensus-building, has received the endorsement of W3C Members and the Director. W3C recommends the wide deployment of its Recommendations. Note: W3C Recommendations are similar to the standards published by other organizations.
The "consensus-building" is very time consuming and thorough. There are many steps involved in getting an actual recommendation published, they aren't just written and approved in a back room somewhere.What I am leading into with all of that is this: The W3C has a Recommendation entitled "Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0". In it, there are many guidelines for making a web page accessibile to all web users (i.e., not just people accessing the internet from a personal computer, who have good vision and hearing). There is a section, section 6.3, titled Guideline 3. Use markup and style sheets and do so properly:
Mark up documents with the proper structural elements. Control presentation with style sheets rather than with presentation elements and attributes. Using markup improperly -- not according to specification -- hinders accessibility. Misusing markup for a presentation effect (e.g., using a table for layout or a header to change the font size) makes it difficult for users with specialized software to understand the organization of the page or to navigate through it. Furthermore, using presentation markup rather than structural markup to convey structure (e.g., constructing what looks like a table of data with an HTML PRE element) makes it difficult to render a page intelligibly to other devices (refer to the description of difference between content, structure, and presentation). Content developers may be tempted to use (or misuse) constructs that achieve a desired formatting effect on older browsers. They must be aware that these practices cause accessibility problems and must consider whether the formatting effect is so critical as to warrant making the document inaccessible to some users. At the other extreme, content developers must not sacrifice appropriate markup because a certain browser or assistive technology does not process it correctly. For example, it is appropriate to use the TABLE element in HTML to mark up tabular information even though some older screen readers may not handle side-by-side text correctly (refer to checkpoint 10.3). Using TABLE correctly and creating tables that transform gracefully (refer to guideline 5) makes it possible for software to render tables other than as two-dimensional grids.
There are thousands of sites that detail what a reduction in "page weight" does for a site. Many of those sites will tell you how to use CSS properly, and get pretty significant gains in page weight, which keeps down page load times, and bandwidth. mozilla.org actually has Tips for Authoring Fast-loading HTML Pages.So, it's not so much that pages that aren't coded to standards still work in IE, but it's more an issue of accessibility. Secondarily, there are page weight reductions, and ease of updating that come from using style sheets. Not to mention they're very powerful and cool ;)As consumers, we shouldn't put up with Microsoft's lack of conforming to the standards. Yes, with IE7 they are fixing some of the more glaring issues they have. However, I don't think it's good enough. Of course, I'm not suggesting that every vendor needs to be 100% compliant with every standard right now, but at least try. Mozilla.org isn't compliant with every standard fully, but the effort is there.Okay, that's my rant for now.
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I think you miss the point.That is ONE single file to change.
I have not missed any points...You think the only way to affect global changes to an entire multipage website is to modify a single CSS file.My development environment allows changes to a single page or globally with a single click. I can create a master page template or nest multiple master page templates within a single master page. Those master page templates can use CSS or CSS and Tables or any combo with dynamic HTML. I can then compile that site and the web viewer is unaware of the tools I have utilized to deliver my dynamic content. I have choice!There are many ways to achieve the same results.I think the real underlying bugaboo here is MS is not open source and that fact alone just chokes in your collective throats.For all the noise about adherence to web standards... please tell why every site I surf to is readable and works. By all the posts to the contrary, I should be unable to see a fair majority of the world wide web and my browser should just choke and die a miserable non-standard death.Sorry folks but I just don't see it...
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Guest LilBambi
While page creators are free to do as they please, using tables for layout is wrong. I am very well familiar with the fact that it works, and is most likely easier (perhaps someone intimately familiar with CSS would argue otherwise, but who is that advanced? :hmm: )The fact of the matter is this:The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) has published many Recommendations. The "consensus-building" is very time consuming and thorough. There are many steps involved in getting an actual recommendation published, they aren't just written and approved in a back room somewhere.What I am leading into with all of that is this: The W3C has a Recommendation entitled "Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0". In it, there are many guidelines for making a web page accessibile to all web users (i.e., not just people accessing the internet from a personal computer, who have good vision and hearing). There is a section, section 6.3, titled Guideline 3. Use markup and style sheets and do so properly: There are thousands of sites that detail what a reduction in "page weight" does for a site. Many of those sites will tell you how to use CSS properly, and get pretty significant gains in page weight, which keeps down page load times, and bandwidth. mozilla.org actually has Tips for Authoring Fast-loading HTML Pages.So, it's not so much that pages that aren't coded to standards still work in IE, but it's more an issue of accessibility. Secondarily, there are page weight reductions, and ease of updating that come from using style sheets. Not to mention they're very powerful and cool ;)As consumers, we shouldn't put up with Microsoft's lack of conforming to the standards. Yes, with IE7 they are fixing some of the more glaring issues they have. However, I don't think it's good enough. Of course, I'm not suggesting that every vendor needs to be 100% compliant with every standard right now, but at least try. Mozilla.org isn't compliant with every standard fully, but the effort is there.Okay, that's my rant for now.
All excellent points. And multi-device compatibility is part of the reason I really like CSS design myself and why I started looking more closely at it.
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Yes, Microsoft is proprietary.However, if their browser, Internet Explorer, were to use the open standards set by the Consortium, then ALL people, using ALL devices, ALL OSes, with ALL accessibility needs, and ALL browsers could make use of these sites.That would actually make it so designing for IE, would be the same as designing for other OSes, browsers, devices, etc., and could actually allow all their clients and customers with any modern browser, OS, device or accessibility needs, to view the content on websites without making the website look bad for one section of that group, or having to design for multiple devices, OSes, browsers, and accessibility needs.This is not just about design simplicity and ease of changes, although that was the original question raised about not wanting to mess with that CSS file at Yahoo...it is about accessibility.Ask anyone who has a sight disability about accessibility issues on the Internet. They have to spend unbelievable amounts of money (or get qualified for assistance from some benevolent entity to aid in paying for this outrageously priced software) to be able to simply understand what we 'see' on the Internet by making use of these expensive screenreaders.Accessibility, whether it is with regard to accessibility issues for the the sight impaired, or for those who use an alternate browser, operating system, device, is a major issue, are real problems to real people...real clients and/or customers...or simply visitors.I only mentioned the simplicity of the single CSS file for changes because 'it seems' that so many designers (particularly those who do sites for those in the medical field, and I am not pointing fingers at Marsden here!) are looking for simplicity to the designer, not for compatibility for all their users.I know of a particular company who provides a Java applet for physicians to access to a specific type of resource that actually REQUIRES that the doctor uninstall the latest Java and install an older, vulnerable version of Java in order to load and/or function at all. A version of Java, by the way, that has made malware installation much easier on their computers.Is there logic in this? I guess it may be preferable to pay the developer one time, or maybe they can't really afford the cost of the changes but every so many years, to actually update the software or applet for them. Hard to believe in the huge dollar medical market these days.So, again, it is not only short sighted, but potentially dangerous to a physician's computer, and by extension, the patient, by potentially putting at risk the very patient records of those he wishes to help by exposing his computer to malware he wouldn't be at risk for if he could always keep his Java up to date.Not to mention that this same Java applet will not run in other browsers, nor is it crossplatform, it requires IE.That may be considered abuse of a proprietary standard because it will require that all in the medical field who wish to access medical resources on the web use Windows and IE. Granted, there are a few exceptions as there always are, but this appears to be true for the overwhelming majority in the medical field.EDIT: corrected accessibility ... thanks epp_b! You'd think with two spell checkers for Firefox, I would have used at least one of them. :hmm:

Edited by LilBambi
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Bambi, you must have cut'n pasted, because you spelled every instance of "assessibility" incorrectly :lol:
I think it's just because she's extremely consistent... :hmm:
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All fixed now! Thanks for the headsup. :)As I noted in the corrected posting, with two spellcheckers for Firefox, you'd think I would actually use at least one, huh? ;)Thanks again! You guys sure make even making a spelling mistake fun! :hmm:

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:lol:pretty good pair of threads!my 2 ¢'s worth:*i love the idea of css (and css2, 3) and think tables should be left for just that, tables of data.i love firefox. sorry if it's slower. its standards-compliance and better security (not to mention orange) are enough for me. _________* yea, i know, it won't display...

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:lol:pretty good pair of threads!my 2 ¢'s worth:*i love the idea of css (and css2, 3) and think tables should be left for just that, tables of data.i love firefox. sorry if it's slower. its standards-compliance and better security (not to mention orange) are enough for me. _________* yea, i know, it won't display...
It isn't slower. I use Myway as a home page. Using firefox it loads in 0.39 seconds. Using IE it loads in about 1.81 seconds. Using simple math 1.81-0.39 = 1.42. Therefore Firefox loads myway 1.42 seconds faster than IE.So then how could IE be faster than Firefox???? Also if and when Firefox crashes(mine has not yet) it does not crash your entire Operating System like IE does. Givin a choice I would use the AOL Browser over IE. :hmm:
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