I will ask one more time. Install Linux on USB HDrive, I want this to be a permanent installation, no "live" OS. Options

[onederer]

I'm still confused!

I know that I can install a Linux distro on a separate external USB hard drive (320GB). I know that I can make it a permanent installation just as if it was installed into a built-in hard drive into the machine. I don't want any "live" installation because of loss of data and OS setup when the power is down. There is no retentivity.
However, I need to know, step-by-step, how to make it bootable (just like a "live" version is bootable from a CD or flash memory. This is where I'm lost. I checked the Vista formatting application. It will format the hard drive, but compared to the older versions of Windows, it no longer asks you if you want to make that drive bootable, after the hard drive has been formatted. I also couldn't find what I needed using a Linux application to examine the hard drive.

Now, in this machine, I have PCLOS running as a file IN Windows Vista, using the WUBU installation application. PCLOS did install somewhere in the system, a Grub boot manager (or version of it) to select either Windows, or PCLOS. Can that Grub be used to also manage the USB hard drive? How?

But now, I need a standard installation of a Linux OS in it's own drive (in this case, on an external USB 320GB HD). There just isn't enough memory in small hard drives in portable laptops. This machine can bootup a USB drive (or a USB Flash Memory).

I know that a Grub menu would make it unecessary to unplug the USB hard drive when turning on the machine, when I need to use MS Verison. But I don't care either way. I don't mind unplugging the hard drive from the USB port if I need Windows to come up. My number 1 concern is that the OS in the external hard drive will be bootable!

So I come to you, gentlemen/ladies, to guide me in the right direction. Please help me make this long-time desire to come true.

UPDATE: I was thinking of installing Mandriva in this external USB hard drive. I was excited that it was somewhat easy to setup wireless networking. However, with the "live" version, I found too many short-comings. I find it to be too slow. It hangs up very easily, and freezes this machine. Unable to download/update applications. Couldn't find the "Xkill" application to unfreeze locked up applications. Couldn't setup the Repositories. Any applications that I needed, I had to go and search for them on the Internet. The download manager seems to be over-simplified. Lots of features and controls are missing. I won't go any further. The frustration was not worth it, and the experimentation was limited because it used up limited available RAM pretty quickly.

But now I must learn how to make an external USB hard drive to be bootable. And with your knowledge, I'm sure that this will work out.

Cheers!

[sunrat]

In newer machines you can often select the boot device using the keyboard during the startup screens. On my computer it's F8, EeePC it's Escape. Install the distro from a CD boot to your USB drive. It's often /dev/sdc or /dev/sdd. Use lsusb or dmesg from a terminal if you need to find out what your device is recognised as.
When you boot the CD usually a live distro will boot and allow you to format the partition during installation. The most important bit is to install GRUB to the distro partition. Then you can select the USB disk from the device select key menu and GRUB should boot.
If you don't have a device key, you may need to install a bootloader in the MBR but it wold be tricky to boot when the USB disk is not plugged in as it reads menu file from there.

[Bruno]

If you don't have a device key, you may need to install a bootloader in the MBR but it wold be tricky to boot when the USB disk is not plugged in as it reads menu file from there.

Right, and that is the biggest problem: the USB drive needs to be plugged in at ALL time. because else you will not even be able to boot Windows, your laptop will be useless !!
So again, just to be clear: without the USB drive plugged in your laptop will be dead.
But is a permanent plugged in USB drive is no problem you can do a "normal" install of any distro as long as you write the bootloader to the MBR of the internal HD drive . You have to be 100% sure that the BIOS does see the USB drive though. ( else grub will not be able to read the menu.lst that lives on the USB drive partition. )

The next problem is that since you installed PCLos on the Windows partition "as a file" you will not be able to boot PCLos anymore.

So in other words: you've got yourself in a tricky situation by using WUBU because now you can dual-boot but not triple-boot.

Best would be to allow Mandriva to use the empty space on the windows partition and make partitions there ( the installer of the "free" version and the Powerpack can do that automatically ) that way you will be able to dualboot Mandriva and Windows. But you still will not be able to boot PCLos.

Only if your laptop can boot from USB, in that case you can do a "normal" install on the USB drive and place the bootloader in the MBR of the USB drive . . . you will then need to change the BIOS to choose the bootdevice: either the internal drive ( to boot Windows and PCLos ) or the USB-HDD ( to boot Mandriva )
( Or if it has a key-combo like Sunrat wrote about you can do the same type of install but you do not need to access the BIOS every time you want to boot another OS )

Next, the bootable flag: Windows partitions need a bootable flag in order to boot from them . . . Linux partitions do not need this, Linux will also boot from partitions without bootable flag.




Bruno

[lewmur]

I'm still confused!

I know that I can install a Linux distro on a separate external USB hard drive (320GB). I know that I can make it a permanent installation just as if it was installed into a built-in hard drive into the machine. I don't want any "live" installation because of loss of data and OS setup when the power is down. There is no retentivity.
However, I need to know, step-by-step, how to make it bootable (just like a "live" version is bootable from a CD or flash memory. This is where I'm lost. I checked the Vista formatting application. It will format the hard drive, but compared to the older versions of Windows, it no longer asks you if you want to make that drive bootable, after the hard drive has been formatted. I also couldn't find what I needed using a Linux application to examine the hard drive.

Now, in this machine, I have PCLOS running as a file IN Windows Vista, using the WUBU installation application. PCLOS did install somewhere in the system, a Grub boot manager (or version of it) to select either Windows, or PCLOS. Can that Grub be used to also manage the USB hard drive? How?

But now, I need a standard installation of a Linux OS in it's own drive (in this case, on an external USB 320GB HD). There just isn't enough memory in small hard drives in portable laptops. This machine can bootup a USB drive (or a USB Flash Memory).

I know that a Grub menu would make it unecessary to unplug the USB hard drive when turning on the machine, when I need to use MS Verison. But I don't care either way. I don't mind unplugging the hard drive from the USB port if I need Windows to come up. My number 1 concern is that the OS in the external hard drive will be bootable!

So I come to you, gentlemen/ladies, to guide me in the right direction. Please help me make this long-time desire to come true.

UPDATE: I was thinking of installing Mandriva in this external USB hard drive. I was excited that it was somewhat easy to setup wireless networking. However, with the "live" version, I found too many short-comings. I find it to be too slow. It hangs up very easily, and freezes this machine. Unable to download/update applications. Couldn't find the "Xkill" application to unfreeze locked up applications. Couldn't setup the Repositories. Any applications that I needed, I had to go and search for them on the Internet. The download manager seems to be over-simplified. Lots of features and controls are missing. I won't go any further. The frustration was not worth it, and the experimentation was limited because it used up limited available RAM pretty quickly.

But now I must learn how to make an external USB hard drive to be bootable. And with your knowledge, I'm sure that this will work out.

Cheers!

The first thing you have to insure is that the USB drive is bootable. While most are, not all are. You can usually tell by plugging the USB drive in and then starting the computer and entering the BIOS setup. Then check to make sure the USB drive shows in the list of bootable harddrives. Note that this is not the same as showing the USB drive as a removeable drive.

If it shows then you can go ahead and install any Linux distro on the USB drive but making sure to install Grub to that drive and NOT to the MBR. Then boot to Vista and download EasyBCD and use it to add the Linux distro to the Vista boot menu.

If the USB drive is not bootable, then your only option is to shrink the Vista partition slightly and add a boot partition to it. It only has to be large enough to hold the files normally found in the /boot folder. Then you can put the rest of the Linux distro on the USB drive.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Onederer,

Here is another opinion... for what it's worth.

I rarely ever disagree with Bruno simple because he knows a helluva lot more than I do. However, I might have to make a wee statement of disagreement here on the issue of bootable flags. Just recently, when I was re-doing my entire system, I found that Windows had set a bootable flag on one of my drives that I did NOT want to boot. Not even BIOS could override this flag. As a result, the drive with Windows was booting regardless of what I actually wanted. This is in spite of the fact that my GRUB-controlled MBR was on a totally different drive. It was frustrating, to say the least. I found that by resetting the bootable flag from the Windows hard drive to the one with my Linux on it solved the issue. See HERE for that solution.

Now, all that aside... This really doesn't have anything to do with your situation because you're using a laptop with an external USB hard drive, which by the way, will be substantially slower than a SATA internal drive. See HERE for a comparison of data transfer rates between SATA and USB. I understand that you don't have many options with the laptop as someone else would with a desktop. This is one of the reasons I don't like laptops. They're designed with a specific purpose in mind (portability). They're not really meant to be used in a true desktop environment.

The best solution for you, in my opinion would be one of two options:

1) Adjust your current internal hard drive partitioning scheme and dual boot your Linux-of-choice from a true hard drive installation. Relegate your USB external hard drive to what its designed purpose is... data storage/backup.

and

2) Run SLAX Linux from a USB thumb drive. These devices are very cheap nowadays. You can get a 10Gig thumb for $20 or so. SLAX is configurable when run from the thumb drive. It will store your preferences, configurations, and data right there on the thumb drive. It'll be there when you boot to it the next time.*

*Note: this doesn't apply when choosing the "Run SLAX from RAM" option at bootup, though. That is a super fast way of running the OS, but all settings are "this time only".

You can read one of my recent blogposts at Linux.com about how to install SLAX on your thumb drive --> My Thumb Drive Toolbox.

Hope this was a little helpful for you, and not too disappointing.

Luck!

~Eric

[Bruno]

@ Eric: Suppose you're right . . . . I always have a bootable flag on /dev/hda1 ( when SATA /dev/sda1 ) regardless if it's Win or Lin . . . for the rest of the partitions regardless on how many there are with a Linux distro there never is a bootable flag.

Sure I never had a mix from ATA and SATA filled with distros ( though I have an ATA as backup drive in my main computer that has 2 SATA drives . . . the SATA are faster so I only use the ATA to write hourly backups to ) . . . So your problem of what drive to boot from was not one of my problems.



@ onederer: I agree on this one:

Adjust your current internal hard drive partitioning scheme and dual boot your Linux-of-choice from a true hard drive installation. Relegate your USB external hard drive to what its designed purpose is... data storage/backup.

But don't forget that it will over-write the Grub that boots your PCLos.



Bruno

[V.T. Eric Layton]

That's true, Bruno. My situation was kind of unique with that combination of EIDE and SATA drives.

[onederer]

Thank you all for your input. I greatly appreciate it.

Here's what I know. The 320GB external USB hard drive, shows up as sdd at the moment. It shows up as empty, and is currently formatted as NTFS (should I leave it that way to install Linux into it?). I do know that the bios allows USB memory devices such as hard drives and flash memories to boot up. The example being that a "live" Linux flash drive will boot up and run the same way as a "live Linux" CD/DVD Rom drive. The bios was setup to first look for someting in the USB ports to boot up before going to boot the CD ROM drive, and then the standard internal hard drive. The floppy drive option has been disabled.

I have no interest of using this external hard drive simply as a backup and storage device. It was not acquired for that purpose. For it's decent storage capacity, it is nice and compact, and will fit nicely into a shirt's breast pocket. Right now, the drive is a virgin. It's contents are empty. It is formatted, but has no files, directories, or partitions in it. My ultimate concern is to make sure that this drive is made to be bootable, with a non-live Linux distro installed in it. If it is plugged into a USB port, it will be the first thing that gets booted up, before anything else. If I were to install PCLOS in that drive, I would delete the PCLOS directory that was installed using WUBU in Windows Vista, on the internal hard drive. This would free up some precious limited space in that internal hard drive. I'm just hoping that I'm on the right track, and it can be done correctly the first time around.

Oh, and the other item, I'm not so concerned with the speed of response to tasks. I assume that it will be reasonable, and perhaps somewhat faster than a "live" linux distro running off the DVD drive.

Now, if I understand it correctly, when I install a permanent Linux OS in that external drive, to make sure that Grub gets installed into the first partition of the USB drive, and not into the MBR of the USB drive? Is that correct?

Cheers, and have a good holiday.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Now, if I understand it correctly, when I install a permanent Linux OS in that external drive, to make sure that Grub gets installed into the first partition of the USB drive, and not into the MBR of the USB drive? Is that correct?

Yes. Your BIOS, if set as you say, will boot this GRUB when the USB drive is plugged in at Power On time.

currently formatted as NTFS (should I leave it that way to install Linux into it?).

No. GNU/Linux cannot be installed on NTFS. You need to partition/format your USB drive before installing the Linux. You'll need, at the minimum: a /(root) partition (format as ext3), a /home partition (format as ext3), and a /swap partition (format as Linux swap).

Luck with this project!





This post has been edited by V.T. Eric Layton: May 23 2009, 06:15 PM

[Bruno]

Yes. Your BIOS, if set as you say, will boot this GRUB when the USB drive is plugged in at Power On time.

Eric, for this to work that way would grub needed to be installed in sdd and not sdd1 ?? ( Or do you want to adapt the PCLos grub so it chainloads the USB drive ? )


Bruno

[Urmas]

http://www.pendrivelinux.com/ubuntu-804-us...stall/#more-372

This tutorial covers the process of installing Ubuntu 8.04.1 (Hardy Heron) to an external USB Hard drive. It is possible to install Ubuntu 8.04.2 to a 4GB+ flash drive using this method as we did, however, due to the additional read/write cycles that occur on a full blown install, the life of your flash drive may be slightly reduced. This simple tutorial utilizes the Install script that is included with Ubuntu 8.04.1 making it easy to run and test the latest offering of Ubuntu without installing to a fixed internal system disk.


This is a full installation of Ubuntu and will act just like an installation to a internal hard drive. All changes are saved in real time and the system can be fully updated and edited.

[Frank Golden]

I have 4 Ubuntu versions installed on an external USB HDD.
I have entries in my main drive Hardy 64 menu.lst that point to these 4 external Ubuntu versions.
When the USB drive is plugged in selecting one of these external grub entries boots the corresponding distro on the external drive.

When not plugged in only the entries for the external distros are inactive (grub error if I select one of them). Everything else functions normally.
How I accomplished this is a bit complicated and I need to think about how I will describe the process.

Running from an external drive is almost as fast as running from an internal drive.
The only reason I have this setup is so I can have older (supported) versions of Ubuntu available for experimental purposes.

My main drive contains Intrepid 64 bit Ubuntu, 64 bit Hardy Ubuntu (Ultimate Edition) and both PCLinuxOS 2009 KDE and Gnome Edition as well as Win 7 RC and XP Pro-SP3. Hardy is where my menu.lst for everything is.

If you prepare the external drive like Eric suggests you can install any distro you like by making sure the external drive is plugged in and then running the distro installer, pointing it to the appropriate partitions on the external drive for the locations of /(root) /home and swap. This is of course you want a separate /home partition. If not just use /(root) and swap allowing the installer to create a home directory at /.

Let the installer install grub to the external drive, this will leave your main drive alone.

To run your new distro you would boot to the external drive and choose your distro from the resulting boot menu.

I chose to create a menu.lst entry for the external drive install in my main drives (Hardy) /boot/grub/menu.lst.

This way I don't need to access the BIOS to boot an external drive. Hardy's menu.lst boots the external distro directly just as it does the other distros on my main drive. Of course the external drive need to be plugged in so Hardy's menu.lst can see it.

If it's not plugged in you will get a grub error until you plug the external drive in.
You will still be able to boot the entries on your main drive.

I hope I explained my self well here. It is a bit complex, the setup use but it works quite well.

[onederer]

Thank you all.

With all that information, I have a lot to absorb, and sort out. Yes, the Bios has been setup ONCE, for the booting sequence(s). I don't have to constantly have to go into the Bios to make selection changes. It first looks to see if anything bootable is on a USB port, if not, then it will look at the DVD/CD drive, if empty, then it will boot up Windows (currently, Grub shows up when it gets to the internal hard drive, so I can choose WinVista, or PCLOS which WUBU currently embedded it as a simple Windows file).

Cheers!

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Eric, for this to work that way would grub needed to be installed in sdd and not sdd1 ?? ( Or do you want to adapt the PCLos grub so it chainloads the USB drive ? )


Bruno

If he allows whatever Linux installation he is putting on that external drive to write its own GRUB to the MBR of that external drive, it should boot independently of any other drive/OS on the system as long as the BIOS is set to boot that external hard drive FIRST. At least that's what I think...

[Bruno]

If he allows whatever Linux installation he is putting on that external drive to write its own GRUB to the MBR of that external drive, it should boot independently of any other drive/OS on the system as long as the BIOS is set to boot that external hard drive FIRST. At least that's what I think...

I agree a full 100% on that . . . so in his case that would be /dev/sdd


Bruno

[V.T. Eric Layton]

And his GRUB may not write the menu.lst correctly for that. I've been here and done this with my own system recently. He may have to edit the menu.lst on the external drive's Linux - /boot/grub to read "hd3,0" (/dev/sdd1) for his Linux installation on this hard drive to boot properly. He'll find out on the first boot. If GRUB can't load that installation, the first thing I would do is check that menu.lst.

[jimg]

I fooled around with installing Ubuntu on a 4gb usb thumb drive a while back. The first thing I did was to disconnect the internal hard drive so there was no possibility of hurting the existing windows installation. I booted the live cd, told it to install to the usb stick and let the installer format and do its thing. I chose not to have a swap file during the installation. After the installer finished, I removed the live cd and booted off the usb stick. It worked fine. It was a little slower than a hard drive install, but a lot faster than a live cd. I then powered down and hooked up the internal drive. With the usb stick plugged in, it boots Ubuntu (and doesn't have any options to boot anything else, which is the way I want it.). Without the usb stick, it boots windows just as it did before.

[onederer]

I fooled around with installing Ubuntu on a 4gb usb thumb drive a while back. The first thing I did was to disconnect the internal hard drive so there was no possibility of hurting the existing windows installation. I booted the live cd, told it to install to the usb stick and let the installer format and do its thing. I chose not to have a swap file during the installation. After the installer finished, I removed the live cd and booted off the usb stick. It worked fine. It was a little slower than a hard drive install, but a lot faster than a live cd. I then powered down and hooked up the internal drive. With the usb stick plugged in, it boots Ubuntu (and doesn't have any options to boot anything else, which is the way I want it.). Without the usb stick, it boots windows just as it did before.

Now, that's exactly what I had in mind. It gives me more courage to try it. It was my intention of removing the flash drive or the hard drive, if I wanted to boot Windows.

Cheers!

[Temmu]

when you do as jimg last posted, go into bios settings and ensure the boot order is

usb - first
cd-rom - next (for emergencies, can bypass the troubled hdd)
hdd - 3rd
nic - 4th (if supported on your machine)

...and apologies if someone posted this earlier. i read through the thread and don't recall this...