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The Software Hall of Shame!


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#51 OFFLINE   pablo

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 05:15 AM

While I agree with most of Scot's nominations (in particular Microsoft Outlook Express), I can't agree with him about PaintShop Pro. Admittedly I have not tried version 7, so can't comment on that particulkar version, but I have been using PSP for years, and find it does pretty well everything I need to do with images, simply and quickly. I have *tried* PhotoShop, and find it excessively complicated after PSP. But of course, the main reason for liking PSP as against PhotoShop is the price. I just cannot afford a program as costly as PhotoShop. If one of the 35 most annoying things about software (and number 1 at that) is the cost, then surely programs as expensive as PhotoShop should be in the Hall of Shame long before PSP!pablo :(

#52 OFFLINE   Walterius

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 05:24 AM

Take PSP off the list. It is not in the same league of awfulness as Kazaa, etc.Compared to Photoshop, PSP doesn't cut it. But as someone said in a far off post long, long ago, you get 80% of Photoshop's functionality at one-sixth the price.Don't know about Elements, but I understand it is giving PSP a run.I use PSP6, and only for its paint tubes, maybe once or twice a year.I tried one of the PSP8 betas. It seemed OK, sexier than PSP6, but also a bit mickey mouse.PSP's main hurt is documentation. I need good *hardcopy* documentation that tells me how to do the task at hand. *How* do I remove blemishes, e.g.888888888888888888888888888888888888888888Add Pest Patrol. I paid $40 for it and it wouldn't work. Had to throw it away. SpyBot and Spyware Blaster are fine, and both are free.

#53 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:05 AM

epp_b, on May 27 2003, 11:54 PM, said:

-Logitech Mouseware and iTouch version 2 & upI absolutely hate those butt-ugly bright yellow letters flashing on my screen every time I use the keyboard locks.  Not only that, but this software causes blue screens (gaaaahhh!)
The on-screen key effects can be turned on/off.  Since the Itouch keyboards are cordless (i.e. battery powered), they can;t have a NUM LOCK or CAPS LOCK ligth shining 24/7, hence the need to show on screen when its on or off.  but like i said, its an option.as for the BSOD, some folks in the other forums also swear logitech causes lots of BSOD, but after 5 years of only logitech, i have yet to see one crash/freeze from mouse or keyboard drivers.  even at various workplaces, i always recommended we get Logitech (i like their ergos) and never have any PC i've seen freeze because of mouseware.  its just my thoughts on this.as a side-note, great thread Scot!   I've never seen so many 'new kids' join a forum over 1 thread!  welcome everyone, and please feel free to explore all the wonderful areas of this forum.I'll take a look at Sheraza, but a P2P program is only as good as its network.  as for Kazaa alternative, i swear by Overnet (but they have spyware you should disable during installation).  Overnet taps into the vast eDonkey network and theres lot less fake files than on Kazaa. also, perhaps the list of shame shouldnt include  obvious spyware like Bonzi Buddy or Gator.  i dont consider those 'real' software.

#54 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:10 AM

optimized, on May 28 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

First of all, the single biggest reason I decided to register and opine on this topic is that (like many others here) I can't fathom how Paint Shop Pro managed to get on the list!
another 'new kid' to join our wonderful forum.  Warm Welcome to everyone new here.Scot, was this some sort of 'reverse psychology' to get more users on the forum, by saying PSP is bad?  :( Someone should post "Zone Alarm:  the worst firewall product ever"  and see a flurry of responses  :(

#55 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:19 AM

optimized, on May 28 2003, 12:45 AM, said:

Windows MEOn the list because not only was it basically just a slightly "enhanced" version of Win98SE wrapped up and marketed as a "new" OS, but it represented a massive leap backward in stability.  What were those folks in Redmond smoking when they decided to release that dog?Anything requiring "Product Activation"I have spent thousands of dollars over the years on software of all types.  I don't like companies assuming I'm a thief and forcing me to jump through hoops to prove to them I'm an honest person.
so true about WinME.  I loaded it recently on an ageing used AMD K5-133 system, and it BSOD on me after first boot up after installation!  *gasp*  I re-formated and loaded Win98SE.  pheww.by the way, Product Activation is the worst thing ever.  Theres talk that Norton 2004 will start to use Product Activation too.  Imagine in the future, if not only Windows but about 2 dozen other programs and games you own all need Product Activation, and your hard drive fails and you have to call 2 dozen places + microsoft and given the a valid 'excuse' to be reissued an activation number.  ack!  but then again, it should be just enough incentive to force a mass exodus over to Linux.  :(

#56 OFFLINE   basx

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 09:34 AM

Hi all:Here's another foam at the mouth gripe that seconds product activation:Any software that requires the Internet Explorer just to install (Acrobat reader 6,0). I already have a browser: Mozilla; so I don't need another one! I resent how MS and its partners arrogantly presume that my hard drive is theirs to install a browser I neither need nor want..  B) Prelude:What do they care? It's YOUR harddrive that crashed not theirs; it's you who must justify why  they should even consider reissuing you a product key; it's you who loses a day's productivity. B)  B)  :( xavier

#57 OFFLINE   nlinecomputers

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 09:40 AM

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by the way, Product Activation is the worst thing ever. Theres talk that Norton 2004 will start to use Product Activation too. Imagine in the future, if not only Windows but about 2 dozen other programs and games you own all need Product Activation, and your hard drive fails and you have to call 2 dozen places + microsoft and given the a valid 'excuse' to be reissued an activation number. ack! but then again, it should be just enough incentive to force a mass exodus over to Linux.
If every company did Product Activation like XP does then that will be a non issue.  There is a lot of hype about PA but the fact is if all that changes on your system is your hard drive then your system will reactivate normally.  If you make major changes, even replace every part, on your system as long as it been longer then 3 months your system will activate normally.  If every program would handle this in the same manor then Product Activation wouldn't be a big issue.How many people REALLY have been hit by Product Activation?  I repair computers for living.  I personaly never had to do it and have had only one client get hit were I had to call in.  And that was pretty painless.  Though 10-15 programs doing that would be a pain in the butt I honestly don't see that happening.(Assuming that all companies will do this the M$ way.)
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#58 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 09:58 AM

basx, on May 28 2003, 08:34 AM, said:

Hi all:Here's another foam at the mouth gripe that seconds product activation:Any software that requires the Internet Explorer just to install (Acrobat reader 6,0). I already have a browser: Mozilla; so I don't need another one! I resent how MS and its partners arrogantly presume that my hard drive is theirs to install a browser I neither need nor want..  :( Prelude:What do they care? It's YOUR harddrive that crashed not theirs; it's you who must justify why  they should even consider reissuing you a product key; it's you who loses a day's productivity. B)  B)  :( xavier
yeah, i can't stand the "must have IE loaded" crap.  I have Win98SE for gaming, and ran 98lite on it to lobotomize IE out of windows (its a shame they dont have an XP version;  MS must have really hammered IE deep into XP).  Anyways, i was loading Need for Speed: Hot Pursuit 2 from EA Games, and a message pops up "You need IE 5 to continue" and it refused to install.  What does a friggin' racing game have anything to do with Internet Explorer, and why couldn't it just use my Mozilla if it wanted to?i'm so anti-product activation.  the hackers/crackers can still easily by-pass it, and the only people that get hurt are those who have 3 computers at home and HAVE to buy 3 full copies of NAV2004 and WinXP.  B)

#59 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 10:14 AM

nlinecomputers, on May 28 2003, 08:40 AM, said:

Assuming that all companies will do this the M$ way.
of course they will.  How many software companies jumped on the "lets name it 95 this or 98 that" bandwagon?  about as many now rushing to have 'XP' in their name and having XP-like menus and buttons.  basically if they copy MS with mundane details like naming method, they'll all follow MS down the Product Activation path.I wasn't aware the re-activation was so leniant.  See, i have a corp version because i felt MS doesnt need to know so much about me by sending whatever info it chooses over the internet to Microsoft servers.  Call me paradnoid, i just plain dont trust them.  B) But quite a few people were angry over at neowin.net, regularly posting messages that MS has banned their copy or refused to re-activate them.  maybe they lent their CD-KEY to classmates in school/college, maybe they didnt know any better.  or maybe some regularly update their computers faster than every 3 months.  But a lot of them say they are forced to re-buy their XP copies or switch to Linux or back to their old Win98 or ME.  and over time, say 2 or 3 years from now, i'm sure the folks needing new activations but not wanting to switch to Longhorn will have nothing but trouble re-registring.I got burned by "activation" DRM with Quicken, so i stayed away from 'legal' copies of XP.

#60 OFFLINE   cybernut

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 10:33 AM

Cluttermagnet, on May 27 2003, 10:37 PM, said:

If you research the software firewalls issue going back over a couple of years, you will see only a few at the top, including Zone Alarm, Sygate, and Tiny. There are no doubt a couple more good ones too. BlackIce took a big hit because it was not providing any real protection against _outgoing_ mischief and mayhem, and it has become an expected norm that firewalls block phone-home spyware as well as all the incoming port probes. Do a little reading on Steve Gibson's site:http://grc.comThe navigation there can be a little confusing since the site got  updated, but you can find the relevant discussion as to why Steve has a problem with Blackice on the following two pages: http://grc.com/su-firewalls.htmhttp://grc.com/lt/leaktest.htm
Thanks for the info, but I'm afraid there are some problems with what you say.  First off, I DID "research the software firewalls issue."  I bought BlackIce a couple of years ago when it and Zone Alarm were both top rated in several software reviews that I read and were also top-rated by two computer security people I know.  Second, and more important, the info on Gibson's "leaktest" page is pathetically out of date.  It refers to a rather old version of BlackIce (the version I bought :-) ).   BlackIce is no longer owned by NetworkICE, is no longer called BlackIce Defender, and a good while ago added BlackIce Application Protection to guard against evil stuff going out (as opposed to coming in).  If Gibson hasn't bothered to update his information, I'd wonder about HIS reliability.Cybernut

#61 OFFLINE   cybernut

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 10:49 AM

nlinecomputers, on May 27 2003, 09:35 PM, said:

Cyber,I think all Norton <fill in blank> software is bloated crap.  But what is your problem with Stomp Backup MYPC?  It is easy to use the only complaint I have with it is the software doesn't format tapes or CD-RW/DVD-RW during the backup.  You got to format taps/disks before hand.  Other than that it is great.
I had high hopes for BackUp MyPC, but I found the instructions hard to follow--I couldn't figure out which sort of backup I wanted to do, nor how to re-do the backup at a later date.  In desperation, I tried to do a one-button backup the next time, and after an endless amount of time, I was getting close to the end when an error message popped up on my screen informing me that there had been a "media flaw" or something like that, and nothing would be saved.   Duh.   And I deeply resent a company that charges money for its software and then won't provide free tech support after a couple of weeks.  In Stomp's case, though, that policy is probably necessary, since so many people would be calling them!That's why I added BackUp MyPC to the list.Cybernut

#62 OFFLINE   cybernut

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 10:59 AM

Scot, on May 27 2003, 07:35 PM, said:

Now, now. I said applications, not OSes. But I *knew* someone would say that. And I would have to agree on Windows 98. Before you give up on Windows, though, you should try XP.<snip>Outlook Express though: I'll fight this on to the death.
Scot, I'm surprised that you're a fan of XP, given MS's policy of product activation.   I'm currently still using Windows98 and am dreading the day when I have to replace my computer, since the new one will almost surely have XP.  I've thought about Linux, but I'm too ****** dependent on a bunch of software programs that I LOVE that run only on Windows.I'm with you all the way on Outlook Express.Cybernut

#63 OFFLINE   epp_b

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 11:58 AM

Have a few more to add to the list:-Microsoft PWSWorst webserver EVER.  I know it's only supposed to be for a personal intranet network.  It worked for playing around with ASP a short while, but then crapped on me and wouldn't run ASP anymore.  Piece of junk if you ask me.  I also ended up formatting and starting from scratch, partially because of it.  You want a good way to ensure you'll mess up your Windows OS?  Try PWS...-Microsoft OfficeNow don't get me wrong, I like the software itself.  What I don't like is that it is so atrociously over-priced!  They want who-knows-how-many-hundreds-of-dollars for the MS Office suite!  Stick that -- Open Office (a free alternative that is compatibile with MS Office file formats) works just fine for me.-Microsoft Help & Support Center (for Windows XP)I think what drives me most nuts about this is that it is so bloated and crowded to a point where it is somewhat complicated to use.  What happend to the simple and easy-to-use CHM or HLP files?  That, and, the "remote-control" feature (that can be used to have someone at another computer take complete control of your computer remotely, used for troubleshooting) poses a very frightening security risk.-IncredimailWay overdone e-mail client.  I would venture to guess that it is even more vulnerable than Microsoft's Outlook and Outlook Express e-mail clients, becuase it is so extremely heavy on HTML mail.I would like to state that Norton software products are generally pretty good (Speeddisk and DiskDoctor beat the tar out of their Microsoft counterparts).  Norton AV is also very good with keeping up-to-date (I find live-update to be not much of a hassle at all).  However, perhaps they should stay on this list because they do leave the registry quite a mess if you ever decide to uninstall a Norton product.  Some even remove keys that belong to other software (yikes!!!)

#64 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 12:18 PM

cybernut, on May 28 2003, 09:59 AM, said:

I've thought about Linux, but I'm too ****** dependent on a bunch of software programs that I LOVE that run only on Windows.
scoot over to our "All Things Linux" and we'll convert you  B) With WineX, CrossOverOffice and Win4Lin programs, more and more Windows Apps and Games can be made to run under Linux, and in the meantime while you;'re dual-booting and testing Linux out, you;ll fall in love with it and get hooked on the many fine Linux-Only applications out there.

#65 OFFLINE   mr llanga

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 12:53 PM

hi!wouldn't the solution to the media player problems be a media player that can read all media files?i don't need a sony tv to watch a sony film so why shoud i have to install realplayer to watch realplayer clips?or isn't this possable in the virtual world?

#66 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 12:57 PM

mr llanga, on May 28 2003, 11:53 AM, said:

hi!wouldn't the solution to the media player problems be a media player that can read all media files?i don't need a sony tv to watch a sony film so why shoud i have to install realplayer to watch realplayer clips?or isn't this possable in the virtual world?
i dont know of any way in Windows, but in Linux, by patching their videoplayer (called MPlayer) , you can get all Divx formats, Xvid, real player and quicktime playing on one platform.I wish there was a program that did every format in windows.  it just makes sense.

#67 OFFLINE   sea

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 01:19 PM

Great topic. I too am a first time responder.I nominate:JV16 Power Tools.    It's a very good program with an awful interface.  I would say the same thing about  the previously mentioned ZA. I love the software but the interface is not very functonal.McAfee Virus Scan.   No redeaming social values.Microsoft Access.      Functional but full of bloat and obscure and unexplained functions that interfear with or don't work with other functions. Not really ready for prime time.It's said before but I have to say again. All spyware, adware, and general scumware that install without notice or permission and intentionally make themselves very hard to remove. The trend is getting worse and it seems that every month brings new ways for bottom feeders to make computing more dificult.I second the nomination on Juno, Outlook, OE, Media Player, Quicken, AOL, Netscape, Kazaa, Comet cursor, Gator and IE.[COLOR=blue]

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#68 OFFLINE   jalbino

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 01:49 PM

I agree with all of the first nominees except one. I don't understand why you included Paint Shop Pro on the list. I've been a (paid-up) user of PSP going back to the days when it was shareware and distributed on 5-1/4 inch floppies. I recently upgraded to PSP 8, and I also am a registered user of Adobe Photoshop 7.Yes, PSP tends to change a few things around in each new version, but it is far easier to use for simple little tasks than just about anything out there with any kind of depth. It's my default image browser of choice for most image file formats.Although I use Photoshop for my heavy-duty professional-level photo editing (and often that's because of the HUGE third-party support in the way of filters and plug-ins, many of which don't work properly with PSP), PSP is my program of choice for quick-and-dirty image printing for non-critical work. So I'm really curious why it makes the first list of "shamful" software.But I DO belong to the opinion group that says, "Friends don't let friends use AOL, Outlook, or MSN." And I'm starting to build up a real hate for RealNetworks stuff.

#69 OFFLINE   jalbino

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 02:11 PM

I should have added in my post praising Paint Shop Pro, that I'd replace it on the "shameful" list with Quickbooks, and, to a lesser extent, Quicken.I was in the beta for the newest Quickbooks, and it *required* installation of IE6 -- wouldn't work with any other browser! Since I was testing (and using) it on a Win2K machine with a reasonably stable IE5.5 on it, and really didn't have any need or desire to put IE6 on that machine I complained pretty loudly.I pointed out to the Quickbooks team that a very large segment of the target market was of the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" persuasion, that *requiring* IE6 very well might limit how well the new version would take off.The official response was, "Tough. IE6 or don't use (test) Quickbooks." And since Quickbooks pretty much requires a product upgrade in order to keep using Payroll features, I think that's pretty arrogant (does, "Let them eat cake?" apply?)With Quicken, every new version adds lots of features I either don't want, don't want to use, or find cumbersome compared to other ways of doing the task, and mostly ends up being just overhead. And they keep changing around the interface just enough so what you've learned to do in the past doesn't work in the present.

#70 OFFLINE   teacher

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 02:36 PM

jalbinoThat does it.  I am ready to give up on ever upgrading anything I have that is Quicken. ...  I can get by with my old version.  I don't do much besides track my funds.I don't understand why everyone mentions Photoshop.  I love the program.  Yes it is big but I really use a lot of the details in it.  Of course, I had to learn it because I ended up teaching it, but I find it easy to use and consistent with all the other Adobe products.  If you want an easy to use progrram then go with the cheaper Elements program.
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#71 OFFLINE   nlinecomputers

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 03:11 PM

Prelude76, on May 28 2003, 08:14 AM, said:

nlinecomputers, on May 28 2003, 08:40 AM, said:

Assuming that all companies will do this the M$ way.
of course they will.  How many software companies jumped on the "lets name it 95 this or 98 that" bandwagon?  about as many now rushing to have 'XP' in their name and having XP-like menus and buttons.  basically if they copy MS with mundane details like naming method, they'll all follow MS down the Product Activation path.
They don't do PA to "copy" Microsoft.  They do it to increase profit.   If PA is going to cost them money then they will not do it.  Look at the Intuit TurboTax issue.    It hurt the bottom line so they are dropping this method.  I expect a more XP like PA to return next year.

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I wasn't aware the re-activation was so leniant.  See, i have a corp version because i felt MS doesnt need to know so much about me by sending whatever info it chooses over the internet to Microsoft servers.  Call me paradnoid, i just plain dont trust them.  B)
Most people arent't.  I not a M$ shrill by any means.  I think they are a monopoloy and need to be broke up.  But that is going to happen.  At the same time however alot of false and misleading information about PA is spread around by paranoid people that assume the worst.  Or want to spread FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt)about Microsoft.

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But quite a few people were angry over at neowin.net, regularly posting messages that MS has banned their copy or refused to re-activate them.  maybe they lent their CD-KEY to classmates in school/college, maybe they didnt know any better.  or maybe some regularly update their computers faster than every 3 months.  But a lot of them say they are forced to re-buy their XP copies or switch to Linux or back to their old Win98 or ME.  and over time, say 2 or 3 years from now, i'm sure the folks needing new activations but not wanting to switch to Longhorn will have nothing but trouble re-registring.
Yeah I've read the same accounts you have. Personally I think it is all BS.   This is the kind of crowd that is going to bootleg copies and try to run more then one copy.  They lost there CD-KEY because they were stupid enough to hand out copies and post there keys on the net.  DUH!   Also alot of this crowd hates M$ and will spead FUD around just because it is**  Though you DO have a point about when it will fail to be activated. M$ can pull the plug to force upgrades and that should worry you.

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I got burned by "activation" DRM with Quicken, so i stayed away from 'legal' copies of XP.
Yep so did alot of folks.  This DRM is too harsh.  I personally can live with it. Not like it mind you but live with it if it works like XP.
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#72 OFFLINE   Prelude76

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 03:31 PM

nlinecomputers, on May 28 2003, 02:11 PM, said:

They don't do PA to "copy" Microsoft.  They do it to increase profit.   If PA is going to cost them money then they will not do it.  Look at the Intuit TurboTax issue.    It hurt the bottom line so they are dropping this method.  I expect a more XP like PA to return next year.
I think once a certain company gets near monopoly in their department, they;ll try going down PA road.  Look at Norton.  And about Quicken, they didnt abandon DRM, just gonna make it a bit less intrusive, like Microsofts' PA.  So that total of 3 MAJOR players in the PA scheme by the end of the year, and if i were to bet, i'd say Adobe will be next to follow.  its almost like anyone with near-monopoly is edging to go full PA.  if you;re like me and want to fight it, the only way is to support non-DRM alternatives, such as Linux, Paint Shop Pro/Gimp, or some other money managers.  Call it FUD if you want, but i think its rather scary how the Help & Support in XP connects to the net, and re-enables itself even after its disable in Services.   i think theres lots of black helicopters flying in and out of redmond lately too.  :D  B)

#73 OFFLINE   cybernut

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 03:56 PM

nlinecomputers, on May 28 2003, 02:11 PM, said:

Yeah I've read the same accounts you have. Personally I think it is all BS.   This is the kind of crowd that is going to bootleg copies and try to run more then one copy. 
Well, this is another aspect of software policy that I strongly disagree with.  If I buy a copy of program X, I think I should be entitled to put it on my computer at home, at work, and on my laptop, as long as only one computer is being used at any one time.   I think it's ludicrous to buy three copies of a program when I'll never use more than one at a time.Cybernut

#74 OFFLINE   nlinecomputers

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 04:19 PM

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I think once a certain company gets near monopoly in their department, they;ll try going down PA road.
This is so true.  When your fighting for desktop space you can benefit from some piracy.  Strange enough it gets your name out.  PA schemes could have been done from the begining.  With specialized applications this is often the case.  Most custom applications use dongles or serial numbers or some kind of PA like system and have had for years.  The big boys, the retail software, don't use it at least not a first.Because if everyone is using Word format docs then you will have to buy Word to use it too.  Once they are the only player though the only way to increase profits is by forcing those who don't buy your product(but use it) to plunk down the cash.  PA does that.I sit on the fence a bit here.  I've found the people that b*tch about PA the most are often the ones most likely to pirate.  I think that PA is intrusive and risky to my data.  At the same time I think that software makers have a right to earn a buck and protect themselves from blatant theives.  People compare software to music or books but IMO it is much more like hardware.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for your car to drive down the road with out tires.  So when you need tires you have to buy tires and install the tires for every car you own.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for your computer to run without software.  But because you can duplicate software you can install software on more then one computer.   If we could duplicate tires, people would, then how would the company that invented the tires make money.    Economic rules say that prices for tires would go up to make up for the lost tires by copying.  So if they manage to stop "piracy" of tires with a copy protected tire then prices for tires would go down because they sell more tires.By that logic Microsoft owes me a refund or at least should lower the price of XP because they should be selling more copies.  I'll take a check. B)
Nathan Williams, N-Line Computers

How to kill a programmer:  Give him a shampoo bottle.  Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

#75 OFFLINE   mcubednyc

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 07:29 PM

nlinecomputers, on May 28 2003, 03:19 PM, said:

People compare software to music or books but IMO it is much more like hardware.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for your car to drive down the road with out tires.
But you can take the tires off one car and put them on another, at will, as many times as you like, without needing to call the tire manufacturer to ask permission.  (Ideally, both cars belong to you.)  Tires don't have "OEM" restrictions, nor do they require "product activation."  Buy them once, and use them however you like.  Resell them to someone else.  Fill one with cement and use it to anchor a tetherball pole!  :D The problem with product activation is that it seeks to limit, at the discretion of the manufacturer, the capabilities you would ordinarily enjoy.  Why any consumer would happily consent to that is beyond me, though I've certainly consented to it unhappily in the case of Microsoft.  At least I'm irritated enough finally to do something about it.--Michael




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