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Unknown Crashes

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#1 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 06:37 AM

Something is disturbing my system and I don't know what.

About a week ago, my system randomly and unexpectedly rebooted. I was sitting here and suddenly without errors or odd behaviour, the system just rebooted. Not a normal reboot with a shutdown screen - just BLINK and I'm looking at the boot screen.

Several days later, the system completely locked up when I attempted to open a browser. Complete freeze - even the mouse cursor wasn't moving.

Friends and coworkers suggested overheating issues. So all day today I've been monitoring the task manager and the system temperatures but I didn't see any red flags. Once every hour or so I jumped onto the computer just to check status. Eventually I came back and the system had restarted.

System logs have no errors before the reboot/crashes. There is only the error messages after the reboot telling me the system shut down improperly.

The only changes before these issuess were 2 Windows Updates the day before my issues started:

https://support.micr...pdate-kb4048955
https://support.micr...ovember-14-2017

Does anybody know of any issues with one of those?

There is a restore point before the update, I haven't restored it yet. If I do use a system restore point, should I disable Windows Update so it doesn't reinstall the update? I also have a bootable USB with Memtest86+ I will run later in the day when I have time.

Edited by DarkSerge, 22 November 2017 - 07:18 AM.

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#2 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 08:06 AM

You could try disabling auto restart after a crash. You'll then get the BSOD but error messages should show up.

https://support.hp.c...ument/c03413399

Also check and see if you need a BIOS update or updated graphics drivers.
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#3 OFFLINE   Digerati

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 11:11 AM

You say your temps are not the problem but without knowing what your temps are, we cannot confirm that. So what are they? How are you monitoring them?

Note too not all critical components are monitored for temps. So is the interior free of heat trapping dust? Are all fans spinning?

And we know nothing about this system, not even if a notebook or PC, home made or store bought, or which version of Windows you are using.

Also, I always want to ensure I am supplying good, clean, stable power before getting too deep into troubleshooting hardware problems, especially odd, intermittent shutdown, reboot, or freeze problems. So I recommend swapping in a known good power supply and see what happens.

Last, development and bug fixes on MemTest86+ ceased long ago in 2013. This was before DDR4, the release of several generation of CPUs, and  UEFI based motherboards became commonplace. Therefore, I recommend MemTest86 instead. Since PassMark took over development, it is regularly updated to remain current with the latest technologies.

While similar names and based on the same core code from may years ago, MemTest86 from PassMark is the better tool. That said, no software based memory tester is 100% conclusive. If it reports any errors, even just 1, the RAM is faulty. But in some cases, the RAM may test good but fail in real-world use or when paired with other RAM.

Be sure to let it run for several passes, or even overnight.
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#4 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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Posted 22 November 2017 - 03:38 PM

I've downloaded MemTest86 from the link above. It's a Windows 10 64-bit desktop system, AMD A8-7600. I'm using a program called Speccy to monitor the temperatures. Sitting idle the CPU settles around 45-50 C and when there's activity it jump to around 55-60 C with a few spikes up to 65 C for a few seconds. The systems itself is less than 2 years old.

I've disabled the auto restart after a crash, though I've had BSOD issues before and so far the symptoms are different this time. No errors before the crash (checked the system log), no actual visible blue screen (I was present for one of the restarts) and last time after a BSOD on restart the system notified me of a crash.

The last time I had issues, it was the graphics driver. I removed everything and let Windows find it's own drivers and that fixed my previous issue. That was maybe 6 or more months ago.

I'm going to run the MemTest86 on it for a few hours today and see what happens.

Update: I let MemTest86 run for about 12 hours today and it found nothing wrong.

Edited by DarkSerge, 23 November 2017 - 05:15 AM.

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#5 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 08:30 AM

You could try booting with a rescue disk or a Linux system disk  (or USB for that matter) and leave it on a while. That would rule out Windows software as a cause if you get a crash.
I have an A8-5600K AMD system that runs Linux all the time and it is stable.
I agree with Digerati's comments about power supply. That has been a cause of trouble for me in the past. Also a visual inspection for dust and fans running is a great idea.
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#6 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 01:30 PM

I do not have another power supply to test.

I wouldn't mind trying a Linux disk, but so far there is no pattern. The system lock-up was 5 days after the first random restart, then the last unwanted restart was a day and a half later. If anything I could try it next week on my nights off when I'll be able to leave the computer on all night and be home to keep and eye on it.

So nobody knows of any Windows Update issues since it was the last major system change before the issues started?

I'm taking today off from working on that computer, so I'll continue tomorrow after the holiday.
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#7 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 03:14 PM

This sounds so like an intermittently failing power supply unit; a bad capacitor or overheating semi-conductor component therein. Unfortunately, intermittent problems are the very worse kind. You'd have to swap out the power supply and time test for a few days to make sure it was the culprit.

Regardless, I do believe this is some sort of hardware issue. Any failure (vid card, RAM, mobo, CMOS, CPU, etc.) can cause reboots. However, PSUs are the likeliest culprits.

#8 OFFLINE   Digerati

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Posted 23 November 2017 - 03:33 PM

Quote

but so far there is no pattern.
Which is a common symptom of power supply problems - that is, no rhyme or reason, or apparent cause for other/strange hardware problems is often caused by a power supply that is not outputting the necessary voltages within acceptable tolerances under all expected load conditions. You need to verify power before spending money on anything else.

Speccy is a great program but for some reason, it often does not report voltages correctly. For example, it is currently reporting the following for this computer:


+3.3V = 2.028 V
+5.0V = 3.367 V
+12V = 0.048 V

    If any of those were true, this computer would not be running.

    So I recommend you check HWiNFO64. The amount of information it provides can be overwhelming at first. Be sure to check the Sensors button at top. Then in the Sensor Status windows, scroll down to your motherboard to see temperature and voltages. But understand, no software based hardware monitor can measure ripple. And because they take a snapshot of sensor values, they cannot show if the power supply is regulating power properly at all loads and all times. According the ATX Form Factor standards, PSUs must maintain voltages within ±5% tolerances.

    Acceptable Tolerances:


    12VDC ±5% = 11.4 to 12.6VDC
    5VDC ±5% = 4.75 to 5.25VDC
    3.3VDC ±5% = 3.14 to 3.47VDC


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    #9 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 24 November 2017 - 05:02 PM

    I installed HWiNFO64. There's a lot there, I'm not sure what I'm looking for. There's info on power under sensors but a dozen values listed.

    I'm annoyed that hardware issues is even a suggestion since I've had this system only a year and a half.  I might have a friend who could have extra power supplies I can swap out. My power supply is a HuntKey HK280-25FP 180W supply. Do I need to find another 180W unit or would any supply work as long as it's 180 or above? I've only had power supply issues once before on my old system and it was already around 7 or 8 years old at the time.

    When I have a could nights off again, I'll take the suggestion and run a Linux CD just to see if anything happens.

    Here's a screenshot of the sensors window with the voltages. I don't know what's normal or what I'm looking for here:

    https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

    Edited by DarkSerge, 24 November 2017 - 05:11 PM.

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    #10 OFFLINE   Digerati

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    Posted 24 November 2017 - 08:16 PM

    I have never heard of HuntKey which would suggest it certainly is not a name brand PSU maker. And 180W suggests this is not a typical desktop PC. Is this an all in one or notebook?

    Those 122° and 114°C voltages are way too high but since they are show under the Auxiliary sensor, they may not mean anything. Your CPU and motherboard temp are fine.
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    #11 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 24 November 2017 - 09:35 PM

    It's a desktop computer, Lenovo H50 90BG003LUS

    I found a friend who has extra power supplies. What would be a recommended power supply wattage to replace or test with?

    According to the Newegg power calculator, I need 434W:

    https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

    I did add a second hard drive and swapped the DVD-RW for a BluRay, but if I need that much why would it come with 180W? Is that power supply calculator accurate? When I calculate based on the computer's original setup, it says 419W

    Edited by DarkSerge, 24 November 2017 - 09:56 PM.

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    #12 OFFLINE   Digerati

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    Posted 25 November 2017 - 12:28 PM

    434 is way more than you need. While NewEgg is a reputable site, their calculator is notorious for overestimating needs by a large margin. All calculators pad the results because the last thing they want to do is underestimate your needs.

    Use the eXtreme Power Supply Calculator to determine your minimum and recommended power supply unit (PSU) requirements. While it too adds a buffer, it is much more conservative and realistic. I recommend setting Computer Utilization to 16 hours per day and CPU Utilization to 100%. These steps adjust for capacitor aging and ensure the supply has adequate head room for stress free (and perhaps quieter) operation. These steps also add a little extra buffer for unplanned future upgrades or added hardware demands.

    It is always okay to buy a PSU that is bigger than you need (except maybe for the budget) but always bad to buy too small. But buying way too big is not good either because power supplies tend to be the most efficient when operating at 50 to 60% load. So the eXtreme PSU calculator is, by far, the most conservative (a good thing) when it comes to padding results, and that is due, in part, because it has the most flexibility. It is also because the developers wish the eXtreme calculator to be the most accurate. And it is.

    When I insert your specs, add 3 x 120 case fans, increase CPU utilization to 100% and Computer utilization to 16 hours per day, as seen here, I get a recommended 252W. And without a discrete graphics card, that makes more sense. So a decent 300W supply would suit your needs just fine.

    That said, a 400 - 450W quality 80 PLUS supply will meet your needs and carry you into the future should you decide to add more drives or perhaps a graphics card too.

    My problem, in terms of recommending something, is 180W is not typical for a "PC". That could indicate Lenovo has gone proprietary instead of with an ATX Form Factor standard power supply and motherboard. :(

    Are you sure that supply you have now is a 180W supply? Or does it perhaps, have 180W capacity on the +12V rail only?

    Quote

    Friends and coworkers suggested overheating issues. So all day today I've been monitoring the task manager and the system temperatures
    Where are you looking? As far as I know, Task Manager does not and never has monitored or displayed "temperature" values.
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    #13 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 25 November 2017 - 05:22 PM

    Quote

    Where are you looking? As far as I know, Task Manager does not and never has monitored or displayed "temperature" values.

    I was using a program called Speccy to watch my temperatures.

    I have a friend who has extra power supplies, he said he'd even lend me 2 of them to swap. I opened up my computer and took a picture of the label on the side of the power supply and in the tiny writing it says the output is 180W (which matches the specs when I Google search my PC brand and model and find specification list.) He also thinks it's my power supply when I explain the issues to him.

    Here's the label of my current power supply:
    https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

    One thing that kind of bugs me. Why would Lenovo not put in an adequate power supply? It sounds like there should have been a better PSU from the beginning. I did a search and didn't come up with any information about this model of Lenovo desktop having power issues, but if they all ship with inadequate power then why is there not more info? This isn't a custom build from someone who made a miscalculation, it's a name brand system.
    ~DarkSerge

    #14 OFFLINE   raymac46

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    Posted 25 November 2017 - 10:07 PM

    Looks like Lenovo has a 14 pin power connector instead of the standard 24 pin one. Go figure.
    This means you must:
    • get a proprietary PSU
    • rewire the connector plug
    • get an adapter to go from 24 to 14 pins.
    Annoying but what can you do?
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    #15 OFFLINE   Digerati

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    Posted 26 November 2017 - 11:47 AM

    Quote

    One thing that kind of bugs me. Why would Lenovo not put in an adequate power supply?
    Money.

    Note however, it is adequate, but just barely.

    If you look at your image carefully, you will see it is the +12VDC output that is rated at 174W. That is enough for relatively short bursts (which is how most users use their computer). But I would worry about excessive heat if you tasked it maxed out for extended periods - say while "Folding" or searching for ET (SETI).
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    #16 OFFLINE   Digerati

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    Posted 26 November 2017 - 12:01 PM

    Quote

    I was using a program called Speccy to watch my temperatures.
    Okay, Speccy is fine for temps but as I noted above, not voltages.
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    #17 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 26 November 2017 - 05:58 PM

    Great.... I knew something was weird about it when the power for the drives was a connection to the motherboard and not the PSU itself... First desktop I buy in a decade and it has to have an abnormal configuration...

    How about this:
    https://www.newegg.c...16442-_-Product

    Edited by DarkSerge, 26 November 2017 - 06:33 PM.

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    #18 OFFLINE   raymac46

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 09:14 AM

    https://www.amazon.c...n to 14 pin psu

    Same sort of gadget.
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    #19 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 03:38 PM

    I ordered the cable, and a friend has a couple power supplies he can give me. So by the end of the week I should have both. Until then, I guess it's just wait and see what happens. I haven't had any restarts or issues in about 5 days.

    Update: Spoke too soon. About an hour after this post the system restarted again. Same symptoms: no errors in the log leading up to it, no BSOD either. I disabled restart on BSOD so I know I'm not getting one.

    Another Update: The Lenovo Solution Center software ran its monthly hardware scan and it came up with failures on my C: drive.  Targeted Read Test, SMART Short Self Test, SMART Drive Self Test, all came up as failed. Could this be related?

    Edited by DarkSerge, 27 November 2017 - 06:58 PM.

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    #20 OFFLINE   raymac46

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 07:21 PM

    Speccy show any SMART errors in Storage?
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    #21 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 10:22 PM

    Speccy reports "Good" on all fields on that hard drive, though the status is "Warning"

    https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing


    I also have HWiNFO64 if there's anything I can check there. Any recommended drive diagnostic software I could give it a scan with?

    Edited by DarkSerge, 27 November 2017 - 10:34 PM.

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    #22 OFFLINE   raymac46

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 10:28 PM

    https://www.lifewire...-review-2626150
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    #23 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 27 November 2017 - 10:43 PM

    Here's a screen of what HWiNFO64 says in the SMART section for that hard drive:

    https://drive.google...iew?usp=sharing

    Update: I installed the SeaTools. I don't have a lot of time to do anything further, but it failed the Short Drive Self Test.

    Edited by DarkSerge, 27 November 2017 - 11:11 PM.

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    #24 OFFLINE   Digerati

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    Posted 28 November 2017 - 11:31 AM

    Quote

    I also have HWiNFO64 if there's anything I can check there
    Again, what does HWiNFO show for your voltages?
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    #25 OFFLINE   DarkSerge

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    Posted 28 November 2017 - 05:15 PM

    View PostDigerati, on 28 November 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:

    Again, what does HWiNFO show for your voltages?

    Compared to the screenshot I shared last time, they're roughly the same, give or take a few small fractions of difference. The only major difference is the "VIN2" was about 1.2v higher when I first compared, but it's slowly dropped to close to what it was when I first shared a screenshot.

    I'll run more scans from SeaTools on my hard drive today.

    Update: "Short Drive Self Test" and "Long Generic" tests in SeaTools fail on the C: drive.

    Edited by DarkSerge, 28 November 2017 - 05:30 PM.

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