Internet slowdowns due to Powerline adapter?

[rmiller1959]

I have an unusual problem to report, and I've traced it to the XE102 Ethernet Powerline adapter.My network environment consists of a D-Link DI-604 broadband router and a Motorola SB5100 SURFboard Cable Modem. My computer is connected directly to the first LAN port on the router, and the second LAN port is connected to a Netgear XE102. The four other computers in the house are connected to XE102 adapters, and access the Internet through the XE102 connected to the second LAN port. I run Windows XP Home on all five computers, and my security software is Norton Internet Security 2004. After moving my computer to the basement, I noticed that the connection times over the Internet were extremely slow, sometimes painfully so. The cable company determined that the source of my slowdowns was the router, since when I was directly connected to the cable modem, my response times improved immediately. I was in almost daily conversations with D-Link to determine the cause and, eventually, they decided the router was defective and needed to be replaced.I purchased a Network Anywhere (Linksys) NR041 4-port router to use while I arranged to return the D-Link to the company for replacement. The same problem cropped up, however, and I couldn’t blame the router this time. On a whim, I disconnected the XE102 on the second LAN port, and my response times improved immediately. I plugged it back in and, gradually, the response times degraded again. I swapped out the cable itself and even replaced the XE102 with a new one I’d just bought to use with a spare computer. Initially, response times were great but, gradually, they degraded again.I am at a loss to figure out what is happening. I’ve used the five XE102 adapters for nearly a year with barely a hiccup. The only change I made recently was to move my computer, router and cable modem into the basement. Could the power be a problem? I’d appreciate any solutions you can provide. Thanks!Cordially,Ron MillerHuntingtown, MD

[Ed_P]

Welcome to the group Ron. Product review According to the review which I only glanced at it said:"The bad: Comparatively slow data-transfer rates. "

Edited April 14, 2004 by EdP

[rmiller1959]

Thanks for the welcome!The slow data transfer rates refer to the speed of the XE102 relative to other networking components, as shown in the chart. Even at the rates indicated, however, the XE102 is still faster than my cable modem connection, so I shouldn't be experiencing these Internet slowdowns.Let me further characterize the slowdowns, and it might better explain my problem. When I conduct a "ping" test to my ISP, Comcast, the usual round-trip time is between 16-20 ms. Slightly higher numbers are OK, and the effect is barely noticeable. When access to the Internet is so slow it's practically worse than dial-up speed, that's when I check my round-trip times, and they're around 1800-2300 ms. If I disconnect the XE102 from the second port on my router, my response times improve instantly. If I connect directly to the cable modem, my response times improve instantly. If I reconnect my computer to the router, and the XE102 to the LAN port on the router, my response times don't degrade instantly, but they do eventually.That's the problem I'm trying to diagnose. If you have any feedback, I'm open to it! Take care!

[Ed_P]

My guess is there is some kind of protocol error and the router is getting into a loop trying to correct it which in turn makes the problem progressively worst. Since you've had the problem with two different routers I doubt it's a router problem or configuration problem or a port problem. If you've tried different XE102s and still get the problem that eliminates them also.I think it's the connection between the XE102 and the electrical system. Can you try different cables or different outlets or different circuits?

[Guest LilBambi]

Hi Ron and welcome!Is it possible that the computers and the router upstairs are on the same side of the 'line' when it comes to the power and your computer in the basement is on the other side of the line?That is often the case in homes. The outlets in the living area are on one side of the line, overhead lighting may be on the other, and the basement may be on the same side as the overhead lighting. The ACs, water heater and some other applicances would probably bridge the two sides of the lines.You might want to have an electrician come in and take a look at that possibility.If this is the case, there are things that can be done in the breaker box to help with this if that is the case, or to simplify things, just have the electrician run another electrical line to the computer area of the basement that is on the same side of the electrical 'line' as the computers and router upstairs.Hope this helps.

[rmiller1959]

I think I need to call in an electrician to help me decipher this problem. You may be on to something, but now you're way out of my comfort zone! I'll let you know how this issue progresses. Thank you for your time and attention!

[Cluttermagnet]

I think I need to call in an electrician to help me decipher this problem. You may be on to something, but now you're way out of my comfort zone! I'll let you know how this issue progresses. Thank you for your time and attention!

The electrician can probably run an extra line of opposite phase downstairs for you as LilBambi suggested, but don't expect most of them to be very well clued about computer networking. Unless you can articulate well to him what you want and why you want it, the whole thing may be an exercise in frustration for you both. What I'm saying here is that it may fall to you to determine which phases you have where, in your house. This might be beyond the capabilities of some electricians. Others may understand the issues well, but probably not most.BTW it is a bit hard for me to understand why folks expect to get blisteringly fast data rates over household power wiring, which can be exceptionally garbaged up with all sorts of transient spikes and sags, and are a far from ideal transmission medium for the RF (radio frequency) energy that your digital data stream really is. If I were to make the choice, I would rank the old fashioned coaxial local networks as tops, wifi as second tier (potential security issues if the system is not well locked down and strong encryption employed), and power lines dead last.If some fast-talking salesman ever comes to your front door and tries to sell you a BPL broadband ISP connection ("broadband over power lines") back away while making the sign of the cross and kick the door shut firmly! What a dog that one is going to be! That is a system that puts your digital signals between you and your ISP on outside power lines for your 'last mile' connection. FCC recently authorized the rollout of that system, but declined to allow higher modem power levels as requested by the BPL companies. This was permitted despite howls of protest from incumbent users of the HF radio spectrum, as BPL systems are essentially little RF jamming transmitters. BPL broadband users and local two-way radio communicators are going to mutually make each other miserable when they end up neighbors. The radio ops will be confronted with strong, broadband radio interference from BPL, and BPL users who are sited near them are going to be plagued with higher error rates and lower throughput when their neighbors are transmitting. Radio transmitter interference to BPL modems has already been demonstrated to be significantly likely if they are close by.Look for occasional but ugly neighbor confrontations nationwide over these technical incompatibilites in the coming years. BTW the burden is going to fall mainly on the BPL modem users if such troubles do occur, both for correcting RF interference to reception at the radio facility (reduce modem power, but that also drastically decreases throughput), and contacting the modem manufacturer for fixes when it proves susceptible to nearby high power radio transmissions from properly licensed and operated radio installations (there may be no workable fix in some cases).It is unlikely but not inconceivable that your router problems might be caused by nearby transmitter interference, but such a situation would be easy to diagnose as you would see irregular periods of both faster and markedly slower data rates. Two-way radio facilities have longer periods when they are receiving distant signals, and relatively shorter periods during which they are transmitting, i.e. they are not 'always on' like broadcasters. If your system is always slow, you can safely rule that out as a potential cause of your problem. The nearby transmitter would have to be fairly close by, probably next door.

[Cluttermagnet]

I think it's the connection between the XE102 and the electrical system.  Can you try different cables or different outlets or different circuits?

This is a great suggestion, and would be well worth trying before calling in an electrician. If you can take the same set of computers and cables and powerline interfaces and so forth and demonstrate acceptably fast data rates in one limited area of the house like a single room (but of course between two different outlets), and then demonstrate appreciably slower data rates when one of the two setups is moved to the basement, being on opposite phases is a likely cause, as suggested by LilBambi. There might be other reasons for the decrease in data rate, however, including just normal variations in household wiring. It's not coax, after all, and it never was designed with data transmission in mind. Expect to see tremendous variation from one installation to another. Just what performance does Netgear claim in their specs for the XE102? They've probably got fine print with exceptions big enough to drive a Mack truck through. Look for the disclaimers. They are probably there on the Specifications page somewhere.

[Ed_P]

Not knowing the age of the house and it's wiring it's possible the cellar outlet is wired wrong or isn't properly grounded. There are simple inexpensive devices that one can get at a hardware store that when plugged into an outlet will show if the outlet is properly wired.In our old house half the outlets were reversed. Using just a screw driver it's a simple fix.

[rmiller1959]

Thanks for all the good advice! A few more details to help narrow down the problem:1) The house is new (built in 2001).2) When the other 4 computers that connect to my router via the powerline adapter are turned off, the response times are normal.3) Until I moved my computer setup downstairs, I was consistently getting @ 8mbps on the network using the powerline devices. They've been extremely reliable, and I've never had an easier network setup.4) My preliminary investigation suggests that the basement electrical wiring is on a different line than the outlets upstairs where the other powerline adapters are located.Question: I'm thinking of moving my router and cable modem upstairs, keeping the powerline adapters on the upstairs "line", and getting a wireless access point and card for the computer in the basement. What is your take on a mixed environment like that?I appreciate your information and insights. Aside from helping me isolate the problem, I'm learning as well.Take care!

[Ed_P]

A new house! Wow!But the wiring could still be wrong on the circuit in the basement. A simple wiring checker can confirm that and if so since it's a new house I'd call the builder to correct it if it's wrong. Unless the basement outlet is something you put in. The WAP idea should work. And probably more convenient than running a cable thru a heating duct. The b models are dirt cheap and if you don't do much file transfering between pcs fine for Internet access.

[Guest LilBambi]

Glad to hear you isolated the problem. That's half the battle right?RE: Wireless access point for basement computer. You would probably get better coverage if you just add the wireless access point to the current location on the main floor level (since moving it upstairs would be two levels and the further alway you get the less signal you get and throughput reduces as well. And wireless will be nothing close to what you've been experiencing with 8mb/sec.) But doesn't hurt to test it out and see.The only real suggestion is to bring the wireless computer close to the router initially to make sure you can connect well the first time you try. Then move it downstairs and see if you still get connected properly. Will certainly make it easier if you have at least been successful in connecting when you were close as to what the real problem night be. That would make diagnosis easier if you don't get proper coverage initially downstairs.

[Cluttermagnet]

There are simple inexpensive devices that one can get at a hardware store that when plugged into an outlet will show if the outlet is properly wired.

Coincidentally, I just bought one of those the other day. Pretty cheap, too- mine only cost 4 bucks at Home Despot. I had to take care of a friend's outlet that got hit in inspection. The ususal suspects- hot and neutral reversed, which was obvious upon visual inspection. So I figured what the heck, I'll buy myself one. If it's good enough for the inspector... It has 3 little lights and the patterns and colors tell you what is wrong, or if all is OK. Threw it in my toolbox after checking over a dozen outlets in a little over 2 minutes. It will be handy to have. Now all I have to do is remember it is in my toolbox.

[rmiller1959]

Well, I'm at a loss to explain this, but I ran a lengthy extension cord from the XE102 powerline adapter in the basement to the wall outlet upstairs where it used to be plugged in. The theory was that, if my normal Internet connection speeds returned, then the problem was how the outlets in the basement were wired vs. those upstairs. It didn't make a difference, however. Initially, the connection was fine, but it eventually began degrading to the point where the connection to my e-mail server was "interrupted" and connecting to the Web was being met with the annoying "Cannot find server" message. I don't know if the extension cord compromised the integrity of the test or what, but given the fact it worked without a problem for several months when it was directly connected to that outlet, my expectations weren't met, and I'm more confused and frustrated than when I started to try and diagnose this problem.I moved the router and cable modem back upstairs, and connected two of the computers directly to the router. The rest of the computers are connecting to the Internet through their respective powerline adapters and the adapter connected to a LAN port on the router. At least there's one less system using the powerline adapter to connect to the Internet. Once I receive the Wireless-G components I ordered (a D-Link DI-624 router and D-Link DWL-G120 USB adapter), I'll connect the computer in the basement via the wireless link and leave only two computers using the powerline adapters. The room in which the wireless router will be sitting is right above the basement, so I'm hopeful there won't be any signal problems.Please explain one thing to me, however. Why would the powerline adapter connected to a specific LAN port affect the Internet connection of a computer (or computers) connected directly to the router on another port? I thought the advantage of a switch over a hub was that it was more capable at managing network traffic and preventing traffic and avoiding collisions between packets on a network. One more thing - according to the LAN link lights on another router I tried while troubleshooting this problem, my computer was connected to the router at 100mb Ethernet speed, while the powerline adapter was presumably at 10mb or less. I don't know if that means anything, since the powerline adapters, in theory, can't exceed 14mbps anyway.I'll let you know how the wireless components work. In the meantime, if anyone has any thoughts based on what my experiment revealed, I welcome them. Thanks!

[Ed_P]

From the review of the product I posted earlier:

Cons:  Connecting from one room to the next is fine. However, going across our 2400 sq ft home provided NO connection. Suggest wireless router.

Distance between the devices is a factor. Which isn't really a surprise. When I had a cable based NetGear hub and NIC setup a few years back the max cable distance supported was 50' I think. With your house wiring, so long as the units were on the same circuit and close together it worked. When you moved to the basement you most likely moved to a different circuit and dramatically increased the distance, wiring wise, between the units. Using the extension cord didn't help because it was a long stretch of wire also.

Why would the powerline adapter connected to a specific LAN port affect the Internet connection of a computer (or computers) connected directly to the router on another port?

The router is being consumed with error recovery trying to maintain a viable connection to a weak or corrupted signal from a distant NIC.BTW According to the NetGear site's specs for the XE102 it's suppose to support a house of 5000 sq ft!! But is also says that:

the limiting factor is often noise in your home's electrical system. Since noise is not directly distance-dependant, you may get considerably less

They also say:

In some cases noise can be limited by placing line conditioners or surge protectors between the source of the noise, and the Powerline units. (Not between the units.) Consult a professional electrician to evaluate your electricity's noise and to suggest remedies.

If you can determine what the source of the electrical noise is; furnace, a/c, washer, dryer, sump pump, etc, and can put a power filter on the device then the XE102s may be ok again. Or you can just use the wireless system that you just ordered.

[rmiller1959]

I’d forgotten that my powerline adapters come with a utility that allows you to implement a security password and also measures the adapter data rates on the network. I don’t know if this information will tell you anything, but here goes:The two powerline adapters in the basement (I finally assembled and connected my spare computer today, so it's on the powerline network as well) “see†each other at the maximum data rate for the devices (14 MB). The data rates between the powerline adapters in the basement and the one connected to the router directly upstairs in the living room are 6.51 MB and 3.49 MB respectively. The ones in the basement “see†the adapter on my wife’s machine, which is in the same room as the router but plugged on the opposite wall, at data rates of 9.34 MB and 8.53 respectively. Finally, they “see†the adapter on my daughter's machine, which is two floors up from the basement, at 3.9 and .9 (!) respectively. Do these variations shed any light on the problem? The rooms are literally on top of each other. What do you think?At this point, I can't wait for my wireless router to arrive (grin)!

[Ed_P]

Do these variations shed any light on the problem?

no. But they suggest that your spare pc is slower than your normal pc and that your daughter has an old hand me down. If you wanted to bond with your daughter you could let her use the spare pc in the basement with you. And she would love the increased thruput when IMing her friends. Have you considered moving to a ranch style home? B)What is the speed of the connection between the router and your daughter's pc? And your wife's pc and your daughter's pc?To measure each pc's Internet speed try a website like BandWidthPlace or 2Wire or DSLreports. In fact try each test on each pc.

[Cluttermagnet]

The router is being consumed with error recovery trying to maintain a viable connection to a weak or corrupted signal from a distant NIC.

I think EdP zeroed in on it quickly with this explanation. This makes the most sense so far, and fits the facts fairly well.

[rmiller1959]

Well, time to close this thread out! My wireless components finally arrived and, after a couple of days struggling with the wireless PCI card to maintain a consistent connection, I think I've got it (Windows-signed drivers and the Windows XP configuration utility did the trick). My connection is incredibly fast (I'm using the D-Link ExtremeG line of products), so I'm off the powerline adapter in the basement. I think I'll gradually upgrade the other three computers in the house that are still using the powerline adapters to wireless, since that seems to be the direction home networking has taken. Thanks to all of you for the help and advice. Not only did you lead me to a solution - switch to wireless! - but you taught me something in the process. I'm grateful!

[Ed_P]

Hey rmiller1959, thanks for the update. Glad to hear that you've got a solution to your problem and that you're happy with it. Wireless G is definitely nice. Now that you have it working make sure you secure your wireless portion of the network. Change the router's signon password, change the SSID and turn on the option to not broadcast the SSID. Once done and everything working consider the encryption option.While none of these will stop a determined hacker they will stop the driveby access seeker and the neighborhood kid downloading music via your bandwidth.

[rmiller1959]

Thanks for the good security advice! I turned off the SSID broadcast, changed the default SSID, enabled WPA-PSK and created an 18-character passphrase with letters, numbers and special characters. I also used MAC address filtering to allow only the computers on my network to connect. I think I've taken every precaution - we'll see!

[Ed_P]

Youse done good rmiller1959. Keep in touch.