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Many Linux snobs push the Arch operating system as the greatest thing

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#26 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 04:08 AM

View Postsaturnian, on 04 July 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

At the Arch forums, they plainly state in the forum rules that "These forums are for Arch Linux ONLY. Not Antegros, or Apricity, or Manjaro or anything other than vanilla Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support."

I have no problem with that. No need for people to be excessively rude about it, but it probably gets kinda annoying when people go there with questions about Arch derivatives without bothering to read the forum rules...





I quite agree. I recon the best way to cope with folk who refuse to read and follow guidelines would be for forum members to have a sticky they could post in answer to any off forum matters. Something simple like,

"These forums are for Arch Linux ONLY. Not Antegros, or Apricity, or Manjaro or anything other than vanilla Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support.
Feel free to search the Arch Wiki for information that may help you."

If that were posted with no other comments it would make life easier for everyone at the forums and give a simple polite message to the offender. An just keep giving the message till the person went away. If they persisted then ban them if possible.

Me mum always told me " treat other folk as you would like to be treated " and I try, not always successful but I try. :breakfast:

Edited by abarbarian, 06 July 2017 - 11:31 AM.

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#27 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 06:56 AM

There are various ways to enforce forum rules without being a jerk or giving RTFM comments. For example if it's a common question you can do a forum search yourself and present a few links rather than give a snarky comment.
You can also politely state that the forum does not support a derivative distro and give the address of the derivative forum. Job done and nobody gets upset. Or send the questioner a PM with this forum in it. You can be confident they'll get good support here if we can provide it.
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#28 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 08:48 AM

I have no problems with abarbarian's nor ray's suggestions.  in fact, i think they're both great suggestions!  too bad the Arch forums don't implement either of those policies with existing forum members.  And don't think I didn't notice which forum these excellent suggestions came from, with intentions of improving a forums usability/accessibility.  THIS ONE!  Once again, BATL for the win!  B)

#29 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 10:00 AM

One difference I see here is that generally all of us are experienced forum users as well as Linux users. We trust the Moderators and they trust us. Many of us have been Moderators on other forums - maybe not computers but it is the same technique on any technical forum.
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#30 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 11:11 AM

View Postraymac46, on 04 July 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

One difference I see here is that generally all of us are experienced forum users as well as Linux users. We trust the Moderators and they trust us. Many of us have been Moderators on other forums - maybe not computers but it is the same technique on any technical forum.

This is certainly true, and you are probably right.  But leadership comes from the top down, not from the bottom up.  The arch forums and BATL both exist within their current state because leadership in each forum either tolerates such behavior, or infracts it.  Arch forums have reputation for snarky elitism because it is allowed.  This forum is so excellent because such behavior is not tolerated.  Leadership...

#31 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:07 PM

View Postmhbell, on 26 June 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Maybe Arch should consider making their distro a lot easier to install. Perhaps they should keep the following excerpt from the story in mind.

Quote

while Arch is a fine OS (stable and fast), it can be very hard to install and set up, and quite frankly, often not worth the hassle. People have lives to live, and sometimes it is easy to forget that an operating system and associated computer are tools -- not a religion.


Mel

They did have one similar to the ncurses one that Debian offers but no one thought it worth maintaining so the installer was dropped. There are plenty of graphical installers out there if you need them but there is no reason for them on Archlinux when you can easily install it with pacstrap and then install the packages you like.

Even back when there was an installer, you still had to set up your environments and such. All it did was guide you through partitioning, bootloader and such.
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#32 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:12 PM

View Postraymac46, on 27 June 2017 - 06:35 AM, said:

For an experienced user (you do NOT have to be a geek) Arch is not that hard to install. Seriously. It's like driving a stick shift instead of an automatic. You are not building the car.
You might have to know what fstab, chroot, mount are and execute a few commands in the terminal. The Arch Wiki is unmatched for useful documentation.
Once you get Arch installed you are in business and just use pacman to keep it up to date.

Exactly :thumbsup:
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#33 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:17 PM

View Postabarbarian, on 27 June 2017 - 05:35 AM, said:

"The fact remains though, that Manjaro is ranked Number 3 on Distrowatch for the last 6 months. They must be doing something right."

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The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

I had a look at the " about " pages of both distros. There are some differences in how and what they are describing.

https://www.archlinux.org/about/

https://manjaro.org/about/

Can you see the difference ?

:whistling:

And that is why DistroWatch is not a good indication of usage. It is a nice place to learn about new distros but their top 10 means little really.

View Postsaturnian, on 02 July 2017 - 01:29 AM, said:

Reminds me of a commercial from years ago (decades ago!) -- might ring a bell to some of you -- I think they had a guy playing an auto mechanic, saying something like, "You can pay me now, or pay me later..." And that's how I feel about Arch and its derivatives: Go with one of the derivatives and save yourself some time and effort now; go with Arch and save yourself even more time and effort later.

Edit:

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pay me now, or pay me later

It was from that old Fram Oil Filter commercial! I just saw it on YouTube! Lol. Early 70s.

Very true in my case too :thumbsup:
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#34 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 07:49 PM

View PostHedon James, on 02 July 2017 - 09:40 AM, said:

I'm interested in Arch AND Manjaro, for similar but slightly different reasons.  I like 'em both, and continue to "Beta test" both in VMs.  And if the criteria was 100% based on the distro, I'd be leaning to Arch.  But for me at least, a big part of a distro's appeal is the community of users around it.  And Arch's Wiki is beyond compare...as a long-term Ubuntu user I have often consulted the Arch Wiki for "how to" of linux configuration.  But there have been instances where, after having RTFM and still not having a grasp, moving on to the Arch forums was an eye-opening disappointment of the arrogance and elitism that I haven't really seen anywhere else except Apple fanbois.  Bluntly, it throws a wet blanket on my Arch interests.....doesn't quash it, but it certainly affects it.  Arch doesn't seem to want to cultivate/develop new users, it seems to want to pickoff users that were developed elsewhere.  At least that is my perception.

We have some WONDERFUL Arch users and ambassadors on this forum, but in my experience, they have been the exception, not the rule.  I wish those folks were in charge of the Arch community.  Leadership and culture comes from the top down.  I'd say THAT is probably the main reason this forum is as awesome as I think it is.  And it's probably the reason the Arch forum is perceived the way it is perceived...and that's a problem, IMO.  But it's a problem that no one in charge of that forum seems interested in addressing.

I think Ray asked the question above, and I think that maybe I would be willing to describe Ubuntu or Mint as "Debian without the aggravation"...but I would be referring to the distro philosophy regarding proprietary/trademarked software offerings.  If I referred to Manjaro as "Arch without the aggravation" I'd be referring to the user communities, not necessarily the software (users here on BATL excepted, of course!).  Manjaro is of interest to me because it provides something I'm very interested in (the Arch ecosystem), and addresses the single largest issue I have with that (the seemingly elitist and exclusive attitude).  IMO, that is Manjaro's whole reason for existence...folks like me who are interested in the Arch ecosystem but are turned off by the seemingly overriding attitude of that user base.  And judging by Manjaro's meteoric rise up the distro charts, I'd say they're doing something right...Manjaro is to Arch as Ubuntu is to Debian, IMO.

Hope I didn't offend any Arch users here, as I think the distro is excellent (so far) and the folks here are wonderful (so far?!).  JMO...  As a long-term Ubuntu user, I'll happily discuss Ubuntu's shortcomings, and likely agree with many of them, FWIW!

Well that is what most people do not understand, Archlinux was built for developers by developers. A completely DIY setup of your creation using binaries. Arch was never really geared towards the beginner user. Archlinux has as always been geared towards the more intermediate user:

Quote

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

All users are encouraged to participate and contribute to the distribution. Reporting and helping fix bugs is highly valued and patches improving packages or the core projects are very appreciated: Arch's developers are volunteers and active contributors will often find themselves becoming part of that team. Archers can freely contribute packages to the Arch User Repository, improve the ArchWiki documentation, provide technical assistance to others or just exchange opinions in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC channels. Arch Linux is the operating system of choice for many people around the globe, and there exist several international communities that offer help and provide documentation in many different languages...
https://wiki.archlin...User_centrality

While I am not excusing the attitude of those on forums, I do understand how they could be annoyed by people asking the same questions that have been answered already on the wiki or on the forums. A large majority of the posts on the Arch forums have already been solved either in the wiki or on another forum post. Based on my experience in the Arch forums, I started the G+ Arch Community with a clear set of rules to keep things on topic and civil. There have been times where people have been rude to others asking for help but as long as you are trying to use Archlinux (not a derivative but vanilla repo installers are fine), we always make sure that it is a welcoming and supportive place. It has gotten to the point now where I rarely even have to step in at all.
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#35 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:02 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 03 July 2017 - 03:55 PM, said:

Josh is awesome. He and I both started experimenting with Arch about the same time... with a lot of help from our old forum mate, Steel (Louis). Josh really took the ball and ran with it, though. I just experimented and moved on. Josh has become an Arch guru in the last 8 years or so. :w00tx100:

Hehe, thanks.  

Not really, I am just good at searching ;)

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 03 July 2017 - 04:19 PM, said:

That was Bruno's doing, mostly. He had no tolerance for rectal orifices. :)

Exactly!! He set an example for us all.

View Postsaturnian, on 04 July 2017 - 01:43 AM, said:

The way I look at it, no sense banging your head against a wall just because people at certain Linux forums don't behave the way you think they should behave, or because you don't like their forum rules. The distro can be great and useful even if its forums aren't what you'd like them to be. Just post your questions at BATL or someplace else, problem solved.

Agreed :thumbup:
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#36 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 05 July 2017 - 08:12 PM

View Postabarbarian, on 04 July 2017 - 04:08 AM, said:

I quite agree. I recon the best way to cope with folk who refuse to read and follow guidelines would be for forum members to have a sticky they could post in answer to any off forum matters. Something simple like,

"These forums are for Arch Linux ONLY. Not Antegros, or Apricity, or Manjaro or anything other than vanilla Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support.
Feel free to search the Arch Wiki for information that may help you."

If that were posted with no other comments it would make life easier for everyone at the forums and give a simple polite message to the offender. An just keep giving the message till the person went away. If they persisted then ban them if possible.

That's basically what I do on my G+ Community. An old friend of mine, Alex, and I came up with a clear set of rules that are enforced without exceptions. Alex is not around very much anymore so I keep up the Community now. I try to be nice when a rule broken and post the rule along with why their post was removed. Most people understand these and follow the rules. Only one of the rules is about derivatives but most are there to help keep everything strictly on topic: https://plus.google....sts/PfyGnQwPJ9z

That alone has kept my Community on topic unlike most every distro's community on G+. Some of them are a complete off topic mess with tons of spam and such as well. I will not name any names but do a search for one of the most popular distros and look at their communities. It is a mess that doesn't help any one at all.
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#37 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 02:08 PM

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Not really, I am just good at searching ;)

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it. :)

#38 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 04:25 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 06 July 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Quote

Not really, I am just good at searching ;)

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it. :)

Very true :thumbsup:
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#39 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 06 July 2017 - 08:31 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 06 July 2017 - 02:08 PM, said:

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it.

Reminds me of years ago when my dad wrote, in a letter to me, "You're smarter than I am, but I'm wiser."

Ha-ha -- he was wrong, though. I wasn't (and still am not) smarter than my dad!

#40 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 08:34 AM

Having played "Castles of Dr, Creep" with my 8 year old grandson I feel neither smart or wise. He has an uncanny sense of the flow of the game and his spatial concept of the rooms in the castle and how they interact is unbelievable.
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#41 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 10:44 AM

One of my father's favorite adages was, "The older you get, the smarter I get." ;)

#42 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 10:28 AM

My dads favourite saying if I complained about helping out was " If you don't work you don't eat". Meaning life in general not that he was not going to give me me tea. :whistling:
Install ARCH
You'll never need to install it again
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#43 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.
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#44 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 06:39 PM

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly. :breakfast:
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You'll never need to install it again
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#45 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:05 PM

I don't think I've bothered to look at Arch's page at DistroWatch in all the time since I started running Arch. Quite simply, I've had no reason to do so. But I've looked at LOTS of other distros' pages there -- most of which I've never even installed!

Quote

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.


#46 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:09 PM

View Postabarbarian, on 08 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly. :breakfast:  
As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

Edited by mhbell, 08 July 2017 - 07:44 PM.

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#47 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 07:41 PM

View Postsaturnian, on 08 July 2017 - 07:05 PM, said:

I don't think I've bothered to look at Arch's page at DistroWatch in all the time since I started running Arch. Quite simply, I've had no reason to do so. But I've looked at LOTS of other distros' pages there -- most of which I've never even installed!

Quote

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.
I stand corrected thanks for the heads up.
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#48 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:37 PM

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

True.

If it were possible to really determine distro popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if Arch turned out to be a lot lower than #17.

Edited by saturnian, 08 July 2017 - 08:37 PM.


#49 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 08:52 PM

Something else I find interesting is that even though Linux Mint has been at #1 in the DW page hit rankings for quite some time, it always seemed to me that the Ubuntu forums were always much more active than the Mint forums. (That could be for a lot of different reasons, of course.) Also, the Arch forums seem surprisingly active... Not saying that forum activity really tells you anything about a distro's popularity, but perhaps it's at least as good of an indicator as DW's page hit rankings are. Or perhaps not -- who knows?

#50 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 08 July 2017 - 09:03 PM

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.
Arch is dead! Long live Debian! :shifty: :D

Quote

As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why.
You realise that means exactly the opposite of what you meant it to mean? "could care less" means you care a significant amount. Don't worry, I've seen it written a lot lately.
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