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Many Linux snobs push the Arch operating system as the greatest thing

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#1 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 04:06 PM


Many Linux snobs push the Arch operating system as the greatest thing since sliced bread. In fact, somemembers of the Arch community (not all of them) can be downright mean and unpleasant to non-users. Not using Arch? Ugh. Peasant! In reality, while Arch is a fine OS (stable and fast), it can be very hard to install and set up, and quite frankly, often not worth the hassle. People have lives to live, and sometimes it is easy to forget that an operating system and associated computer are tools -- not a religion.

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#2 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 04:14 PM

Blimey he ain't half got it in for us poor old archers. :breakfast:
Install ARCH
You'll never need to install it again
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#3 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 05:31 PM

Meh, hater's gonna hate. It's amazing that a person would write an article to generate interest by talking crap about the distro that provides all of their updates, provides their documentation and who would cease to exist without said distro. This is probably one of the people who went to the Archlinux Community claiming that were using Archlinux and then got their feeling hurt when the post was removed because it was off-topic.

While Manjaro does hold back packages and try to make their own release schedules, I believe their binaries are still coming from Archlinux. Just because you create a couple of graphical tools and add an installer which isn't even really yours (notice how the article implies that it is a Manjaro project):

Quote

What Calamares is not

Calamares is not a Manjaro Linux installer, or a KaOS installer, or a Maui installer, or even an installer for Arch Linux based distributions. Calamares is an independent product. The Calamares team works closely with Linux distributors to provide the very best experience to their users......


Who develops Calamares

Calamares is maintained by the Calamares team. Most of us are also KDE developers, and we have received contributions from BBQLinux, Fedora, KaOS, Kubuntu, Manjaro, Maui, Netrunner and OpenMandriva developers as well.

We gladly accept contributions from everyone, and we have no exclusive association with any Linux distribution. Calamares is not a KDE project, or a KaOS project, or a Manjaro project, we are just a bunch of people dumping some code on GitHub.

https://calamares.io/about/

I understand the whole idea of open source and using parts of projects to build a distro but I feel as though the Manjaro project has taken advantage of the popularity of Archlinux.

In the beginning, they started claiming that they were just an installer for Archlinux which was fine when that was actually the case. But then they started adding custom repos, patching and holding back packages while still claiming that they were just an "easy way to install Archlinux". Then it became a problem and I believe some of the main arch devs put a stop to that real quick (probably copyright of the Arch Linux name, I dunno).

And as you can see in that article, they are still riding Arch's coat-tails while talking smack the whole time. It's kind of pathetic really.

Now that said, I personally have zero problems with any Archlinux installer or any other distro. It's one thing to take a base and make it your own by providing installers, package managers, themes, etc. but deceiving users is a whole other thing.

There are a few nice Archlinux graphical installers out there. Some make minimal changes that are easily enough converted to regular Archlinux.

For instance, Antegros has a nice graphical installer and still onely uses one custom repo, a custom bootloader splash and a few small tweaks that could easily be removed if you like. There are others like ArchAnywhere and Architect Linux that will give you a vanilla Archlinux install with a graphical installer, complete with all the bells and whistles.

Sorry for my rant but now you may understand why I despise Manjaro. This has been going on for years with them. Just look at this blog post from the main developer of pacman (arch's package manager):  http://allanmcrae.co...-for-stability/
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#4 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:23 PM

I agree that Manjaro is not "Arch without the hassle." If I had to describe it I'd say "Nice looking distro with customized desktops. AND you get to use pacman."
That may be enough for most folks to give it a try.
It is not inherently more stable. A decision the developers made completely blew up my AMD video card and made the ISO unbootable. Another upgrade wiped out my wifi (and this was with an Atheros wifi card.)
Their forum isn't all that friendly either, and a year or so ago they completely changed its format and made all the legacy posts unreachable without security risks.
I had some stability issues with Arch Linux but that was more a problem with VirtualBox than Arch. I have done an Arch install in an older netbook and it has been rock stable. Nor do I find installing Arch to be that big of a hassle. You learn a lot and if you follow the cookbook you'll be fine.
Manjaro is a nice distro but if you want Arch, use Arch. Would you describe Linux Mint or Ubuntu as "Debian without the aggravation?" :wacko:
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#5 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 06:50 PM

View Postraymac46, on 26 June 2017 - 06:23 PM, said:

I agree that Manjaro is not "Arch without the hassle." If I had to describe it I'd say "Nice looking distro with customized desktops. AND you get to use pacman."
That may be enough for most folks to give it a try.
It is not inherently more stable. A decision the developers made completely blew up my AMD video card and made the ISO unbootable. Another upgrade wiped out my wifi (and this was with an Atheros wifi card.)
Their forum isn't all that friendly either, and a year or so ago they completely changed its format and made all the legacy posts unreachable without security risks.
I had some stability issues with Arch Linux but that was more a problem with VirtualBox than Arch. I have done an Arch install in an older netbook and it has been rock stable. Nor do I find installing Arch to be that big of a hassle. You learn a lot and if you follow the cookbook you'll be fine.
Manjaro is a nice distro but if you want Arch, use Arch. Would you describe Linux Mint or Ubuntu as "Debian without the aggravation?" :wacko:

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#6 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 07:30 PM

Thanks Security for the links to Arch anywhere and Architect linux. Maybe I will try Arch again using one of those. I tried Manjaro, but did not like it. I liked Antergoes better. The fact remains though, that Manjaro is ranked Number 3 on Distrowatch for the last 6 months. They must be doing something right. Maybe Arch should consider making their distro a lot easier to install. Perhaps they should keep the following excerpt from the story in mind.

Quote

while Arch is a fine OS (stable and fast), it can be very hard to install and set up, and quite frankly, often not worth the hassle. People have lives to live, and sometimes it is easy to forget that an operating system and associated computer are tools -- not a religion.


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#7 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 26 June 2017 - 09:04 PM

Meh... it's just like football fans, book fans, movie genre fans, music fans, etc. Fans of certain operating systems (be it Windows, Mac, Linux distros, whatever) behave similarly very often. They run in clans, are loyal to their favs, trash talk their opponents/competitors, etc.

It's the nature of the beast...

Pretty much like politics, but we won't go there. ;)

#8 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 05:35 AM

View Postmhbell, on 26 June 2017 - 07:30 PM, said:

Thanks Security for the links to Arch anywhere and Architect linux. Maybe I will try Arch again using one of those. I tried Manjaro, but did not like it. I liked Antergoes better. The fact remains though, that Manjaro is ranked Number 3 on Distrowatch for the last 6 months. They must be doing something right. Maybe Arch should consider making their distro a lot easier to install. Perhaps they should keep the following excerpt from the story in mind.

Quote

while Arch is a fine OS (stable and fast), it can be very hard to install and set up, and quite frankly, often not worth the hassle. People have lives to live, and sometimes it is easy to forget that an operating system and associated computer are tools -- not a religion.


Mel

"The fact remains though, that Manjaro is ranked Number 3 on Distrowatch for the last 6 months. They must be doing something right."

Quote

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

I had a look at the " about " pages of both distros. There are some differences in how and what they are describing.

https://www.archlinux.org/about/

https://manjaro.org/about/

Can you see the difference ?

:whistling:
Install ARCH
You'll never need to install it again
"I did and I'm really happy"

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#9 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 06:35 AM

For an experienced user (you do NOT have to be a geek) Arch is not that hard to install. Seriously. It's like driving a stick shift instead of an automatic. You are not building the car.
You might have to know what fstab, chroot, mount are and execute a few commands in the terminal. The Arch Wiki is unmatched for useful documentation.
Once you get Arch installed you are in business and just use pacman to keep it up to date.
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#10 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 01:29 AM

I've had no interest in Manjaro after finding out how they pull Arch packages into their own repos and so forth.

I wouldn't mind if Arch was quicker and easier to install, but it seems that the process is a big part of what makes Arch what it is.

I can understand that many users will prefer something that's easier to install, and that not everyone has the time or the interest to bother with doing a "real" Arch installation. But it seems to me that my "straight" Arch installations have turned out to be better than the derivatives I've used (Chakra, Bridge Linux, ArchBang, and now Antergos), especially over time. There's less "cruft" -- fewer packages, etc. that I don't want/need, and maintenance seems more straight-forward. Everything seems cleaner.

I do like Antergos -- I think it's a great project, and I'm enjoying my time with it. But, again, my Antergos installation includes a lot of stuff that I don't have in my Arch installation, stuff that I really don't need; and, I've had a few problems creep up in Antergos that did not happen in Arch.

In my experience, Arch turns out to give me less trouble, down the road, than any of the Arch derivatives I've used.

That's a very big deal, considering that Arch is a rolling-release distro!

Reminds me of a commercial from years ago (decades ago!) -- might ring a bell to some of you -- I think they had a guy playing an auto mechanic, saying something like, "You can pay me now, or pay me later..." And that's how I feel about Arch and its derivatives: Go with one of the derivatives and save yourself some time and effort now; go with Arch and save yourself even more time and effort later.

Edit:

Quote

pay me now, or pay me later

It was from that old Fram Oil Filter commercial! I just saw it on YouTube! Lol. Early 70s.

Edited by saturnian, 02 July 2017 - 02:19 AM.


#11 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 06:33 AM

Arch has turned out to be the perfect distro for my second gen 64 bit Atom Toshiba netbook.
I don't need Libre Office so I didn't install it. I use Abiword and Gnumeric.
On the other hand I installed Shotwell to keep track of  my backup photos on holiday.
Don't need a music player or ripping software. Didn't install them.
I did install Xfce because the netbook is capable of running it. I also put in lightdm and some themes to pretty things up and make it easier to run.
With the SSD, pacman is fast and powerful in keeping everything current. It's been very stable so far.
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#12 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 09:40 AM

I'm interested in Arch AND Manjaro, for similar but slightly different reasons.  I like 'em both, and continue to "Beta test" both in VMs.  And if the criteria was 100% based on the distro, I'd be leaning to Arch.  But for me at least, a big part of a distro's appeal is the community of users around it.  And Arch's Wiki is beyond compare...as a long-term Ubuntu user I have often consulted the Arch Wiki for "how to" of linux configuration.  But there have been instances where, after having RTFM and still not having a grasp, moving on to the Arch forums was an eye-opening disappointment of the arrogance and elitism that I haven't really seen anywhere else except Apple fanbois.  Bluntly, it throws a wet blanket on my Arch interests.....doesn't quash it, but it certainly affects it.  Arch doesn't seem to want to cultivate/develop new users, it seems to want to pickoff users that were developed elsewhere.  At least that is my perception.

We have some WONDERFUL Arch users and ambassadors on this forum, but in my experience, they have been the exception, not the rule.  I wish those folks were in charge of the Arch community.  Leadership and culture comes from the top down.  I'd say THAT is probably the main reason this forum is as awesome as I think it is.  And it's probably the reason the Arch forum is perceived the way it is perceived...and that's a problem, IMO.  But it's a problem that no one in charge of that forum seems interested in addressing.

I think Ray asked the question above, and I think that maybe I would be willing to describe Ubuntu or Mint as "Debian without the aggravation"...but I would be referring to the distro philosophy regarding proprietary/trademarked software offerings.  If I referred to Manjaro as "Arch without the aggravation" I'd be referring to the user communities, not necessarily the software (users here on BATL excepted, of course!).  Manjaro is of interest to me because it provides something I'm very interested in (the Arch ecosystem), and addresses the single largest issue I have with that (the seemingly elitist and exclusive attitude).  IMO, that is Manjaro's whole reason for existence...folks like me who are interested in the Arch ecosystem but are turned off by the seemingly overriding attitude of that user base.  And judging by Manjaro's meteoric rise up the distro charts, I'd say they're doing something right...Manjaro is to Arch as Ubuntu is to Debian, IMO.

Hope I didn't offend any Arch users here, as I think the distro is excellent (so far) and the folks here are wonderful (so far?!).  JMO...  As a long-term Ubuntu user, I'll happily discuss Ubuntu's shortcomings, and likely agree with many of them, FWIW!

Edited by Hedon James, 02 July 2017 - 09:42 AM.


#13 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 02:14 PM

It's accurate enough to describe Ubuntu and Linux Mint as "Debian without the aggravation" but both distros provide much more than that - customized desktops developed by each distro, tools for installing and updating software, codecs etc etc. The goal is to make it easier for a new Linux user to do some actual work, not just avoid the hassle of a complicated install.
In its own way Manjaro does that too so it's fair to compare it to Ubuntu. It does it a disservice to say that all you get is Arch without the inconvenience.
I haven't frequented the Arch forums - why would I with Josh and the other Arch-ers here? However there is a whiff of the same elitism on the Manjaro forum. Maybe it's just that not-so-subtle disrespect for new Linux users that Bruno always cautioned us about.
In my view you can never be an advocate for anything if you persist in slagging your converts - but maybe that's just me.

Edited by raymac46, 03 July 2017 - 06:45 AM.

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#14 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 08:20 PM

Yeeesh! Seems I've found the Arch fanboi section of this forum.





jk ;)

#15 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:02 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 02 July 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

Yeeesh! Seems I've found the Arch fanboi section of this forum.





jk ;)

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#16 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 02 July 2017 - 10:25 PM

Well, lots of people like Manjaro, obviously. By the way, good review at this week's DistroWatch: https://www.distrowa...current#manjaro

I don't know, I came to Linux expecting a learning curve, expecting to have to do a lot of reading and studying, and figuring that it would take me some years to get a handle on things. Call me a "snob" or an "elitist" or whatever, but from my perspective, "RTFM" isn't bad advice. It wasn't bad advice when I was starting out with Linux -- I knew I needed to put in the work if I wanted to become a Linux user. I'm not quite sure why anyone would think otherwise.

Still bugs me, though, when some folks at the Debian forums, for example, can't answer a simple question without a snarky comment. When I see that happening, I try to point the OP in the right direction, if I can. No need to be rude about it.

Lol, but that's the world we live in. Anybody who uses any kind of social media learns real fast that there are a lot of jerks out there.

The atmosphere at a given distro's forums isn't of the utmost importance to me, personally -- obviously, I guess, since my two favorite distros are Debian and Arch, neither of which is known for having super-friendly forum members!

I logged in and checked: I've got a total of 8 posts at the Arch forums. None of those were requests for assistance. I got a little bit of help here at BATL, but as I recall, most of that was because I started out with Arch-derivatives and knew better than to go to the Arch forums with questions about those.

#17 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:00 AM

View Postraymac46, on 02 July 2017 - 02:14 PM, said:

It's accurate enough to describe Ubuntu and Linux Mint as "Debian without the aggravation" but both distros provide much more than that - customized desktops developed by each distro, tools for installing and updating software, codecs etc etc. The goal is to make it easier for a new Linux user to do some actual work, not just avoid the hassle of a complicated install.
In its own way Manjaro does that too so it's fair to compare it to Ubuntu. It does it a disservice to say that all you get is Arch without the inconvenience.
I haven't frequented the Arch forums - why would I with Josh and the other Arch-ers here? However there is a whiff of the same elitism on the Manjaro forum. Maybe it's just that not-so-subtle disrespect for new Linux users that Bruno always cautioned us about.
In my view you can never be an advocate for anything if you persist in slagging your converts - but maybe that's just me.

I have to agree with everything you said here...SB is awesome!  It was his reassurances and encouragement that allowed me to actually follow through with an Arch distro (as well as some others here, such as yourself!).  But I don't like being completely reliant and dependent on ONE solution/vendor, as that is never a good thing.  It's probably the main reason I ended up an Ubuntu user when I was done distro-hopping/experimenting.  In my real 3-D world, there are NO linux users...I wasn't introduced to it by anyone...stumbled into Linux on my own and jumped in the rabbit hole after that.  No tutoring, no mentoring, no filter-down, no osmosis.....just whatever I can glean from web forums, google searches, and Linux Format magazines!  I require a wide enough user-base for google/troubleshooting issues.  If there is only 1 source and that source cannot provide me an answer, that is a very real problem in my world.

Fortunately, there is the Arch Wiki, which has been an excellent resource, even for Ubuntu, FWIW!  Unfortunately, sometimes the Arch Wiki is over my head...and these are the instances where RTFM makes me wanna go postal.  I've never posted in the Arch forums, but I've certainly read through threads and it just isn't a community that I want to be a part of.  I also agree there's a whiff of elitism on Manjaro forums, but not nearly as pervasive as Arch forums.  Conversely, the level of discourse on Manjaro forums isn't nearly as informative as Arch forums; there's a lot of "how do I change my start menu button" on Manjaro, LOL!  In my experience, those 2 forums are nearly mirror inversions of each other.

JMO...maybe I'm the elitist who expects more than can be delivered.  Or maybe I'm just spoiled by BATL, as everyone here is wonderful and helpful.  We've got Debian, Arch, SUSE, Ubuntu, Mint, Slackers, and a whole host of derivative and niche users......all getting along.....everyone helping everyone......and no one bashes anyone for the choices they've made, or their level of (lack of?) expertise.  THIS is how it SHOULD BE...and I can't help but wonder why our model here isn't more prevalent in the world?  Again, maybe I expect (hope?) for too much...

#18 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:29 AM

Call me a cynic but there are jerks and trolls everywhere - Facebook, Twitter, even a watch forum I used to moderate. Not surprising to find them in Linux fora.
That this forum is an exception is a tribute to the greatest Linux advocate any of us ever knew - Bruno Knaapen. It is his legacy and the Administration here has kept it alive. We are a low traffic forum but we are here for anyone who needs us.
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#19 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 10:52 AM

View Postraymac46, on 03 July 2017 - 10:29 AM, said:

We are a low traffic forum but we are here for anyone who needs us.

A few times now, I've recommended this forum and LinuxQuestions.org to users, but I don't know if anyone has taken me up on it. I think both sites are often better than (certain) distro-specific forums for getting answers without a bunch of nonsense. But I'd recommend BATL first because I think folks here do a better job of helping people out, even though we are few.

#20 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 12:19 PM

Kinda getting back on topic, you folks may (or, may not) enjoy some of the posts in the comments section of this week's DistroWatch regarding Arch, Manjaro, other Arch derivatives, and their forums. Pass the popcorn.  :lol:

#21 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 02:42 PM

Quote

Just for the record, Arch Linux is installed from the command line with an archlinux iso. Use the handholders if you must, but you will not be welcome on the Arch boards. You will simply be a (e.g;) Manjaro user with an Arch base.

That's the attitude we need around here. Really helpful.

Quote


I presume you don't want to argue this point further. You could test by posting on the Arch boards and tell them you used an installer, see what kind of response you get. I have witnessed it firsthand several times.


For the further record, I do not ever "demonize" Arch. I have used it for many years, and have great affection for it. It's the help vampires and circlejerkers that drive me crazy.

Same guy. Anybody want to recruit him?

Edited by raymac46, 03 July 2017 - 02:45 PM.

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#22 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 03:55 PM

Josh is awesome. He and I both started experimenting with Arch about the same time... with a lot of help from our old forum mate, Steel (Louis). Josh really took the ball and ran with it, though. I just experimented and moved on. Josh has become an Arch guru in the last 8 years or so. :w00tx100:

#23 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:02 PM

When presented with the option of "to help, or not to help, but ignore" or the option of "to help, or not help, but but be a jerk to explain why help won't be given", I'm always amazed by the folks who will go the extra mile in choosing the latter.  I'm also a little surprised, and VERY PLEASED, that we don't even have a single instance of one of those here?!  Kudos to the management of this place!

#24 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:19 PM

That was Bruno's doing, mostly. He had no tolerance for rectal orifices. :)

#25 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 04 July 2017 - 01:43 AM

At the Arch forums, they plainly state in the forum rules that "These forums are for Arch Linux ONLY. Not Antegros, or Apricity, or Manjaro or anything other than vanilla Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support."

I have no problem with that. No need for people to be excessively rude about it, but it probably gets kinda annoying when people go there with questions about Arch derivatives without bothering to read the forum rules...

The PCLinuxOS forums had a rule about not discussing any other distros besides PCLOS. I liked that distro, but I was one who coudn't quite adhere to that particular rule... so, I finally quit posting there.

A good friend of mine absolutely refuses to even visit the Debian forums -- can't stand the way too many forum members behave there. But he uses Debian -- only Debian -- and, as far as I know, has no intentions of ever switching to any other distro.

The way I look at it, no sense banging your head against a wall just because people at certain Linux forums don't behave the way you think they should behave, or because you don't like their forum rules. The distro can be great and useful even if its forums aren't what you'd like them to be. Just post your questions at BATL or someplace else, problem solved.

Edited by saturnian, 04 July 2017 - 01:54 AM.






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