Windows (xp) time-keeping

[-ct-]

i have a small app that connects to any of a dozen U.S.Govt. time server atomic clocks i use to get the time set rightin win2k, i rarely ever had to, one a month would be fine - and when i did check it was no more than a second or two offnow, with winXP - it's typically off by 14 seconds or more, every few days!what gives?

[Ed_P]

i have a small app that connects to any of a dozen U.S.Govt. time server atomic clocks i use to get the time set right

Are you using Dimension4?My XP system is within 2 seconds of an atomic clock and it was last set on the 13th. Do you have XP's Internet Time syncing function on? If so I would suspect your CMOS battery getting weak.

[-ct-]

naa, cmos battery is fineand no, i turned off that bit of M$ codethe less i have to connect to their crap, the betterthe app is NStime32 www.jeditec.com

[-ct-]

no one has any ideas why xp would be losing so much time so often?Do you have XP's Internet Time syncing function on? - ohelno, that's one less thing to have to connect to M$!

[Ed_P]

Do you have XP's Internet Time syncing function on?

Those of us running Win XP who want our pc clocks kept current use the XP Internet Time Automatic Syncing function. It runs once a week and can connect to one of 3 different time servers, mine is set to connect to tick.mit.edu, not MS. For someone who's main concern is history files you should be happy that your pc's clock is taking you back in time. Some clocks use the power's 60 cycle feature to keep themselves in sync. If your utility's power is at a different frequency or your running off of batteries it may expain the situation.Why don't you like Dimension 4's time utility? It can update the clock at any frequency you want, from every few minutes to hours to days, and thus solve your problem. Does NStime32?Or are you saying NSTime32 is setting your pc's time off. Confused now.

[Jeber]

Since the CMOS battery is generally the #1 reason for this problem, could I suggest even if you changed it within the last few months, you may have purchased one that was already partially drained or may be otherwise defective. Since they're only a couple of bucks, you might want to buy and install a new one just to eliminate that possibility.

[-ct-]

Do you have XP's Internet Time syncing function on?

Those of us running Win XP who want our pc clocks kept current use the XP Internet Time Automatic Syncing function. It runs once a week and can connect to one of 3 different time servers, mine is set to connect to tick.mit.edu, not MS. For someone who's main concern is history files you should be happy that your pc's clock is taking you back in time. Some clocks use the power's 60 cycle feature to keep themselves in sync. If your utility's power is at a different frequency or your running off of batteries it may expain the situation.Why don't you like Dimension 4's time utility? It can update the clock at any frequency you want, from every few minutes to hours to days, and thus solve your problem. Does NStime32?Or are you saying NSTime32 is setting your pc's time off. Confused now.

once a week? that's not often enough to get the time set right, andonce a week? that FAR FAR too often to be connecting to M$ servers!not on batteries, power is regulated via battery backup (it's in good condition, less than 6mo old)don't care to have yet another app running in the background, as dimension4 and nstime would/can dowhen i use nstime, it connects to any of several atomic clocks, and reports back to me that my system time is off by XXX seconds(just checked time as i post this- 14.07 seconds behind)i've also checked the battery on the board - it's perfectly fine as is the voltage through itthis same system , running win2k less than a month ago, was NEVER off by more than 1 to 1.5 seconds, so i have to believe it's got *something* to do with XP

[Ed_P]

Each time you have mentioned the time difference it seems to be 14 seconds. Does it ever vary by more than that? How frequently do you set the clock? Maybe the NSTime32 pgm isn't tuned for Win XP. Maybe it's dlls have been compressed on the hd and slow to get running. Maybe the XP network config needs to be tweaked for the clock site you use. Maybe the clock site you use is booked or has a server down. Maybe it's XP related, then again there are other possibilities.Try a different time utility and see if it's off by 14 secs also. I use AtomicTime95 for checking my clock. I've had the utility for years, it's not as sophisticated as Dimension 4 or NSTime32 but it's small and simple to use. I can loan it to you if you'd like. NetLab 1.4 for Win 95_NT can also display the atomic clocks. I've had it for a long time also. Worst comes to worst you could schedule NSTime32 to run once a day.

once a week? that FAR FAR too often to be connecting to M$ servers!

No, no, no. I connect to tick.mit.edu which is certainly NOT** You could too.

[-ct-]

53.067 seconds this timeand it varies greatly, sometimes goes up to 3 minutes off, sometimes less than 10 secondsreally depends on how often i check i thinkMaybe the NSTime32 pgm isn't tuned for Win XP. Maybe it's dlls have been compressed on the hd and slow to get running. - no "tuning" needed, no dll's , it's a single exe fileMaybe the XP network config needs to be tweaked for the clock site you use. - naa, the network settings are perfectly fineMaybe the clock site you use is booked or has a server down - u.s. govt atomic time servers? not a likely idea, and i have several servers i can connect to

[Ed_P]

- u.s. govt atomic time servers? not a likely idea, and i have several servers i can connect to

My AtomicTime95's originally time server stopped working and I had to change it to a different one. Things do change and go down. Try a different one for a while and see what happens.The ones I'm familar with and know work in my system are:tick.mit.edu129.6.15.29131.107.1.10harbor.ecn.purdue.eduBTW which one do you use, ns.arc.nasa.gov?

[-ct-]

i've tried all the servers the app has available in it (7 of them, and can be updated), and it doesn't matter which one i use, the clock is ALWAYS offdepending on how long in between the times i check it, gives different amounts of time that it's off byquite annoying...

[Ed_P]

Too bad you can't have the clock automatically resync'ed on a daily basis. That doesn't correct the problem but at least it minimizes the impact of it.

[-ct-]

oh, i can set it to check and update automaticallybut i don't wanna :Prather find out why XP is screwing it up...

[teacher]

I would rather think the fault is not XP, but rather your hardware. Mine does not keep the right time unless I sync it. It does not make any difference whether I am in Linux or Windows, so it has to be the hardware!Julia

[ibe98765]

Time on a computer is approximate and will tend to "drift" at different rates, depending on hardware, regardless of the CMOS battery state. Computer time must be synched on a regular basis. You can use the Windows Time Service or one of the many independent programs that do this either manually or automatically.Some information and other links here:

The real-time clock (RTC) hardware on machines can be off by an hour or more after a week or two without correction. Machine times may also drift at different rates. So under typical conditions, a delta of up to 20 milliseconds (0.020 seconds) is considered a reasonably exact match. The clock on a Windows 2000 system ticks approximately once every 10 milliseconds. Link

[-ct-]

so the assumption here is that there is a bad CMOS batteryone which was working perfectly fine one day, running windows 2000, and the next day/week when running winXP it's now bad and can't keep the time correctly?*coughbull****coughcough*

[Ed_P]

That was a very interesting link ibe98765, thanks.-ct-, did you review the Windows 2000/XP documentation for NSTime32? Section 6's Troubleshooting Hints states "• According to posts in Usenet newsgroups, certain Dell computers do not keep time well underWindows XP. Dell has patch available on their web site to fix this problem.". Is your pc a Dell?

[-ct-]

...Is your pc a Dell? 

*GASP*! yer joking right? LOLno, i do not have a dellnor would i consider one for any of my friends, family or aquaintences - or enemies for that matteri build my own stuff, tyvm :)i did read the pdf, but again, that requires a service to be running in the background - something i am trying to avoid

[Ed_P]

I agree with your feelings about Dell. From the few I've seen I'm not impressed.The Dell patch is a service that runs in the background!!! A strange fix. But, the reported fix implies that there are hardware senarios; processors, chip sets, BIOSes and etc, that do not keep time well when running Win XP. Your system could have the same components and thus the only fix is to resync the clock on a regular basis.

[-ct-]

ok, but WHY only in XP?this exact same system has had 98se and 2k on it with no problems, now with xp pro it screws up the time?oh, i guess i didn't mention this before, but the time is ALWAYS faster than what the atomic clocks reset it tosurely not a sign of a weak battery...

[ibe98765]

ok, but WHY only in XP?this exact same system has had 98se and 2k on it with no problems, now with xp pro it screws up the time?oh, i guess i didn't mention this before, but the time is ALWAYS faster than what the atomic clocks reset it tosurely not a sign of a weak battery...

I have NEVER seen a computer using ANY OS that can keep perfect time without the help of an outside resource. It just isn't technically possible due to how time is determined on a computer, as the link I provided above indicates.Whatever, I doubt you will be able to fix this issue unless you choose to enable the time service or use one of the time apps to update the clock on a regular basis. You can use a macro/mouse click program to build a task that calls the program that reaches out to the get the correct time and auto schedule it to run through Task Scheduler or something similar.

[Ed_P]

oh, i guess i didn't mention this before, but the time is ALWAYS faster than what the atomic clocks reset it to

Well that sheds a whole new light on the problem. The answer is simple, Win XP is more efficient that those other versions and doesn't put such a drag on the clock so the clock speeds up. Like a wheel on a car that has the load removed. :)While that may be a little far fetched one must remember that Win XP has a means built in to periodically resync the clock. They may have intentionally added that feature to address the very problem you are having.

Whatever, I doubt you will be able to fix this issue unless you choose to enable the time service or use one of the time apps to update the clock on a regular basis.

I agree.

[-ct-]

all the answers and responses so far to this thread have been correct in one way or another, yet none have actually adressed the fact that it's WinXP Pro that's causing the problem and how to fix it or WHY it's happeningas mentioned previoulsy, it's NOT the hardware at fault here - it's worked perfectly fine with other operating systems prior to xp (2k was never more than a second or two off)

[ibe98765]

as mentioned previoulsy, it's NOT the hardware at fault here - it's worked perfectly fine with other operating systems prior to xp  (2k was never more than a second or two off)

I don't believe that it is possible for any computer on any OS to stay consistently synched within a couple of seconds given how time is calculated on a computer. On my current (Dell) system, time is always off when I occasionally synch it up with the atomic clock. When I was running Win2k on this system, I had the same problem. On my old Win98 system (non-Dell), I had the same problem. If you closely monitor your computer time on any system on a daily basis, you'll find that it will always drift and accumulate errors.I know you don't want to believe this. Here's a LINK for this excerpt and there is also much more info at the link.

The Clocks Inside Your PC Two time-of-day clocks reside in every IBM-compatible computer. These clocks go by several different names, but for simplicity, we'll call them the software and hardware clocks. The software clock runs only when the computer is turned on. It stops when the computer is turned off. The hardware clock uses a battery and runs even while the computer is turned off.Every computer that runs DOS or Windows has a built-in software clock within the operating system. On old PC or XT-compatibles, this clock was driven by the Intel 8253 timer-counter chip or an equivalent device. AT-compatible computers use a device equivalent to an Intel 8254 timer-counter. The timer-counter is programmed by the BIOS to generate an interrupt every 54.936 milliseconds, or about 18.206 times per second. Another BIOS routine counts the interrupt requests and generates a time-of-day clock that can be read or set by other software programs. For example, Windows uses the information from the software clock when it date and time stamps files.The software clock is useful, but it has several limitations. First, the software clock is a poor timekeeper. Its accuracy is limited by the stability of the interrupt requests. Any change in the interrupt request rate causes the clock to gain or lose time. If you leave your computer turned on for long periods, the software clock might be off by large amounts, perhaps a minute or more for every day that the computer was left turned on. It's also possible for an ill-behaved software program to use the timer-counter for another purpose and change its interrupt rate. This could cause the clock to rapidly gain or lose time.Another problem with the software clock is that it cannot display all possible time-of-day values. The resolution of the clock is limited to the interval between interrupts, or about 55 milliseconds as stated earlier. Only times that are even multiples of this interval can be displayed. For example, 00:00:01.00 could never be displayed by the software clock. The closest possible values it can display are 00:00:00.98 and 00:00:01.04.The single biggest limitation of the software clock, however, is that when the computer is turned off the clock stops running. On the original IBM-PC, this meant that you manually had to set the clock each time you turned the computer on. You could purchase an optional battery-backed clock for the PC, but there were several different standards, and not all of them worked with all software packages. This problem was addressed with the introduction of the IBM-AT in 1984, which included a battery-backed hardware clock as standard equipment. An AT-compatible hardware clock is included with every 'WinTel' computer produced today.The hardware clock is based on the Motorola 146818 Real Time Clock Chip, or a functionally equivalent device. The clock is supported by the BIOS, and BIOS services are available that let software programs read and set the clock. The hardware clock is a CMOS device that consumes very little power. When the computer is turned off, it runs on batteries. When the computer is turned back on, the software clock starts running again and sets itself (within 1 second) to the hardware clock. Although the two clocks are synchronized at start-up, they may run at very different rates and will probably gain or lose time relative to each other while the computer is running. The hardware clock is updated once per second and cannot display fractions of a second. For this reason, it cannot be read or set within better than a second. The accuracy of the hardware clock is determined by the quality of its timebase oscillator (typically a 32.768 kHz crystal). These crystals are economical, costing less than $1 in single quantities. However, they offer only marginal timekeeping performance. They are sensitive to temperature and other factors and are often not calibrated at the factory. Even under the best conditions, these oscillators are not likely to be stable to better than 1 part per million (about 0.1 seconds per day). In actual operation, most hardware clocks seem to gain or lose time at a rate of about 1 to 15 seconds per day, with 5 or 6 seconds per day being typical. Although the hardware clock usually outperforms the software clock by a considerable amount, its performance often pales in comparison to even a low-cost wristwatch.As you can tell by now, neither the software nor hardware clock is suitable for accurate timekeeping. Fortunately, however, there are several ways you can keep accurate time on your PC if your application demands it.

[Ed_P]

yet none have actually adressed the fact that it's WinXP Pro that's causing the problem and how to fix it or WHY it's happening

I disagree. Several options have been presented to fix the problem all of which you have rejected. ibe98765 has presented detailed information on the function of timing in pcs which you have dismissed. If you've made sure your BIOS is current and all your device drivers are current and all OS updates applied there's nothing else you can do. Your unique hardware configuration simply doesn't play nice with Windows XP. At this point you must accept the problem and either a.) run a utility or feature to correct the problem b.) use a different OS c.) use different hardware.

[Ed_P]

Ok -ct- how about this?

Sometimes the time is incorrect because the power settings are incorrect.If you upgrade your motherboard and do not reinstall fresh Windows, the motherboard resources from the old one are inherited into the new system. Many of these components work because they might be backwards compatible; furthermore, components like APM (Advanced Power Management) do not work properly and cause mysterious effects. In my case, every time the computer went into sleep mode, when it woke up it kept the same time when it went to sleep.Edit the registry key:HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Detectand add the following STRING VALUE: ACPIOption=1Reboot the machine and this should do it.I do not know if this would be a factor but I got rid first of APM from my devices.http://thetechnozone.com/pcbuyersguide/har...osing-time.html

From here.

[-ct-]

an interesting idea, however, i installed xp pro cleanformatted the drive, etc..at least i come up with the interesting problems/questions, eh?

[-ct-]

update, after fixing the commandline here problem, i needed a rebootso, checking the time in the BIOS, it's right on timeafter the reboot, i check it again, and it's 52 seconds off!ZA Pro comes to me and sasys there's an update, so i get it , and have to rebootBIOS time is right onreboot, check time and it's 63 seconds off!

[Ed_P]

You have a weird pc. Can we assume that those off times are Fast rather than Slow?

[-ct-]

You have a weird pc.  Can we assume that those off times are Fast rather than Slow? 

yes, and yeshehe