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#1 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:10 PM

It's really amazing how a former distro hopper and early adopter (moi) has become so conservative when it comes to Linux.
I downloaded Linux Mint 18.1 today and I think it's finally ready for prime time. It worked just fine with my AMD based system including the R7 360 video card. Wifi works out of the box (and this was a problem for me when Mint 18 first came out.) The new dark theme and Cinnamon desktop are gorgeous.
I could probably go ahead with an install now. But I'm reluctant to do so.
Mint 17.3 still works fine on my system and it has a couple of years to go before the end of life. It seems to be rock stable with wifi and video. Most of my Linux "customers" are still running Mint 17.3.
Do I want to go through the hassle of an install, then an Fstab reconfiguration to get my hard drives working right? This is a working system the grandkids use when they come over. I blog and post from it. It backs up my digital photos.
I guess I'm getting old, or maybe Linux has gotten mature enough that I can be happy with an LTS release for a long time. Maybe it's the Conservatism that seems to be taking over the world these days. Whatever it is, I'm sticking with LM 17.3.
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#2 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:47 PM

dust off another old soldier and put LM 18 on that!  Everybody should have 2 machines, with staggered versions!  JMO!  o:)

#3 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:44 PM

There is no need to reinstall to get LM 18 now: https://community.li...orial/view/2316
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#4 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:00 AM

I'm aware of the ability to upgrade from 17.3 to 18 but I am afraid it'll bork my file system somehow. The best idea I suppose would be to follow HJ's suggestion and install on a second machine I have to play music in the workroom. Maybe I'll try the in place upgrade there.
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#5 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 10:20 AM

View Postraymac46, on 14 January 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

I'm aware of the ability to upgrade from 17.3 to 18 but I am afraid it'll bork my file system somehow. The best idea I suppose would be to follow HJ's suggestion and install on a second machine I have to play music in the workroom. Maybe I'll try the in place upgrade there.

Well in that case, personally I would use Clonezilla to make a snapshot of your install.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#6 OFFLINE   striker

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 11:33 AM

Ray, I would suggest to leave the system as is, because LM has a problem accessing USB hard disk drives, that is in my case it has. Maybe because these USB hard disk drives I use are all Mac based filesystems, however the necessary software to be able to read those were installed in LM and it still has problems accessing them. I can manage to workaround that, but it shouldn't be that way. Because it's on a second system/laptop combo I seldom use, I don't mind. One day I'll try another distro on that laptop but not now... So to put it in a nutshell, if you are tempted to try/use LM 18,1 go ahead but use a second system, not your main machine. Better safe than sorry I guess.
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#7 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 11:45 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 14 January 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

View Postraymac46, on 14 January 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

I'm aware of the ability to upgrade from 17.3 to 18 but I am afraid it'll bork my file system somehow. The best idea I suppose would be to follow HJ's suggestion and install on a second machine I have to play music in the workroom. Maybe I'll try the in place upgrade there.

Well in that case, personally I would use Clonezilla to make a snapshot of your install.

Seconded :thumbs:

Mind you if you are going to all that trouble you might as well install MX-16 :Muahaha:
Install ARCH
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#8 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:39 PM

@Ray... if it ain't broke, don't fix it. ;)

@Striker... I'm so happy to see you here again, friend. It's been a very, very long time!

#9 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 15 January 2017 - 03:48 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 15 January 2017 - 03:39 PM, said:

@Striker... I'm so happy to see you here again, friend. It's been a very, very long time!

Indeed :D
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#10 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 08:33 PM

View Poststriker, on 14 January 2017 - 11:33 AM, said:

Ray, I would suggest to leave the system as is, because LM has a problem accessing USB hard disk drives, that is in my case it has. Maybe because these USB hard disk drives I use are all Mac based filesystems, however the necessary software to be able to read those were installed in LM and it still has problems accessing them. I can manage to workaround that, but it shouldn't be that way. Because it's on a second system/laptop combo I seldom use, I don't mind. One day I'll try another distro on that laptop but not now... So to put it in a nutshell, if you are tempted to try/use LM 18,1 go ahead but use a second system, not your main machine. Better safe than sorry I guess.
Thanks Striker. Also It's great to see you around here again!

View Postabarbarian, on 14 January 2017 - 11:45 AM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 14 January 2017 - 10:20 AM, said:

View Postraymac46, on 14 January 2017 - 10:00 AM, said:

I'm aware of the ability to upgrade from 17.3 to 18 but I am afraid it'll bork my file system somehow. The best idea I suppose would be to follow HJ's suggestion and install on a second machine I have to play music in the workroom. Maybe I'll try the in place upgrade there.

Well in that case, personally I would use Clonezilla to make a snapshot of your install.

Seconded :thumbs:

Mind you if you are going to all that trouble you might as well install MX-16 :Muahaha:
I certainly am tempted ... I use AntiX on a couple of old 32 bit netbooks.
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#11 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 03:50 PM

Well the upgrade process works. I tried it out on my oldest 64 bit soldier - an AMD dual core 4600+ machine that I had built for Linux back in 2008 - around the time Bruno was building his Core2 Quad desktop.
This particular unit is now used mostly to play MP3s in the basement junk room. I've recycled old monitors and video cards to it, so it now has a discrete Nvidia 650 in it.
It was running Linux Mint 17.1 so the process was a multistep one:
  • Upgrade from 17.1 to 17.3 using the Upgrade Manager
  • In the Terminal install the mintupgrade tool
  • Use mintupgrade to check if the upgrade would work OK
  • Download all the necessary packages with mintupgrade
  • Perform the actual upgrade with mintupgrade
All this upgrade to Version 18 you do with the command line and after installing 1600 odd packages you get to Mint 18.0 Then you have to (again) use the Update Manager to upgrade to 18.1 At the end of the day everything seems to work including video and wifi. The whole exercise was as scary as when I upgraded Ubuntu 7.04 in place back a decade ago . :sweatingbullets:

Will I try it on my main driver? Not likely. It has an AMD R7 360 card in it  and there were all sorts of problems with that card and early 4.X kernels. Right now I am still using a 3.X kernel with it and fglrx - which won't work with later versions of X.
I have tried the ISO and 18.1 seems to work OK but with all the movin' and shakin' of an in place upgrade it might happen I'd end up with an older kernel and no video. I'm pretty sure a complete fresh install from the ISO would be fine but right now if it ain't broke... :smashcomp:
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#12 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM

It's nice that you managed to get it upgrade through various versions. :thumbup:

Now if you would of just been upgrading from one version to the next, you probably could of just ran the minupgrade tool. I upgraded 3 machines at work without any issues (these were not work computers) and it worked just fine.

Personally I probably would of just backed everything up and did a fresh install.... B)
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#13 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 07:41 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

It's nice that you managed to get it upgrade through various versions. :thumbup:

Now if you would of just been upgrading from one version to the next, you probably could of just ran the minupgrade tool. I upgraded 3 machines at work without any issues (these were not work computers) and it worked just fine.

Personally I probably would of just backed everything up and did a fresh install.... B)
Well I wanted to try and see if it would work. I had to go from 17.1 to 17.3 before trying the version upgrade anyway. I agree that fresh install is the best way to go normally.
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#14 OFFLINE   sunrat

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:30 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

...
Now if you would of just been upgrading from one version to the next, you probably could of just ran the minupgrade tool...
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#15 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:34 PM

View Postsunrat, on 19 January 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

...
Now if you would of just been upgrading from one version to the next, you probably could of just ran the minupgrade tool...
Two more puppies died. s/of/have/

Well I am from the South...
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#16 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 06:12 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 19 January 2017 - 09:34 PM, said:

View Postsunrat, on 19 January 2017 - 09:30 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 19 January 2017 - 04:43 PM, said:

...
Now if you would of just been upgrading from one version to the next, you probably could of just ran the minupgrade tool...
Two more puppies died. s/of/have/

Well I am from the South...

Looks like the good ol' USA has the same problem with folk from the sarf as we do in the UK. :devil:
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#17 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:02 AM

View Postraymac46, on 19 January 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

Well the upgrade process works. I tried it out on my oldest 64 bit soldier - an AMD dual core 4600+ machine that I had built for Linux back in 2008 - around the time Bruno was building his Core2 Quad desktop.
This particular unit is now used mostly to play MP3s in the basement junk room. I've recycled old monitors and video cards to it, so it now has a discrete Nvidia 650 in it.
It was running Linux Mint 17.1 so the process was a multistep one:
  • Upgrade from 17.1 to 17.3 using the Upgrade Manager
  • In the Terminal install the mintupgrade tool
  • Use mintupgrade to check if the upgrade would work OK
  • Download all the necessary packages with mintupgrade
  • Perform the actual upgrade with mintupgrade
All this upgrade to Version 18 you do with the command line and after installing 1600 odd packages you get to Mint 18.0 Then you have to (again) use the Update Manager to upgrade to 18.1 At the end of the day everything seems to work including video and wifi. The whole exercise was as scary as when I upgraded Ubuntu 7.04 in place back a decade ago . :sweatingbullets:

Will I try it on my main driver? Not likely. It has an AMD R7 360 card in it  and there were all sorts of problems with that card and early 4.X kernels. Right now I am still using a 3.X kernel with it and fglrx - which won't work with later versions of X.
I have tried the ISO and 18.1 seems to work OK but with all the movin' and shakin' of an in place upgrade it might happen I'd end up with an older kernel and no video. I'm pretty sure a complete fresh install from the ISO would be fine but right now if it ain't broke... :smashcomp:

I remember you posting about this before, and the issues you were having.  I'm sure you're already aware, so for other folks reading, a little extra background:

As I understand it, in order to be more compatible with Vulkan graphics stack/engine, AMD is merging their "proprietary" fglrx driver with the open source "radeon" driver.  The new "hybrid" driver is AMDGPU or AMDGPU PRO, depending on your card, while the open source driver is still Radeon.  The problem lies in that AMD no longer supports fglrx (although you can obtain it manually), and there was an issue with the implementation of the hybrid driver with newer cards.  It is also my understanding this has been resolved in Ubuntu 16.10, and backported to 16.04.  Not sure what the resolution was, as I'm happy with the Radeon driver, but I'm aware of the chatter.

Perhaps these links will be helpful for you, if you want to know more:
https://help.ubuntu....ty/RadeonDriver
and
https://help.ubuntu....DriverHowto/AMD

While it's a little inconvenient right now (and poorly implemented, IMO), this looks like a pretty forward-thinking move by AMD-ATI to position themselves as the GPU of choice for Linux/Steam gamers.  Intel is already open-source, AMD is following suit and is a step up from Intel, IMO; could this force nVidias hand to be next, if only to maintain their share?  This can only be a good thing for the rest of us...

#18 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:19 AM

Nice :thumbsup:
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#19 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 09:44 AM

@ HJ I am very much supportive of AMD's efforts to go FOSS with their drivers and in fact I happily used the radeon driver with the APU I had before I got my R7 360.
However my card was too new to be supported by the creaky version of X in LM 17 so to get any display at all I was forced back to fglrx. Now I think the issue is sorted out as the ISO for LM 18.1 works just fine with the integrated FOSS driver. In the past through things were very shaky - especially with the early 4.X kernels. The R7 360 card is now quite trailing edge so I'd expect full support both in the kernel, X and the FOSS driver. My concern right now is with the outcome of upgrade process rather than the driver. A fresh install would likely be the best way to go.
Beyond that early versions of LM 18 had big time wifi issues - no connection even with Linux friendly Atheros wifi - and this also seems to be fixed in 18.1.

Edited by raymac46, 23 January 2017 - 09:47 AM.

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#20 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 10:44 AM

I hear ya Ray!  You know....those are the sorts of things that drive me NUTS with Linux.  It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's almost enough to make you question what other short-sightedness was glossed over beneath the hood?

I can understand an "obscure" bug that is only revealed in the wild, once a sufficient user-base has reported it; such as "shutdown" hangs, or "scanner not found by software", or "network not visible", etc...  Things may not work as expected, but they work, or they have a workaround.  That's part of computing, and to be expected.

But in my opinion, prominent issues with graphics drivers, X-display, and ubiquitous wifi chips are regressional game-stoppers that should NEVER have gotten out of the barn.  It makes me wonder how they did...  Those 3 items are probably the most visible components to a typical user, and they occur within the first 3-5 "events" of turning on a computer.  I can certainly understand a bug in some esoteric piece of hardware, but your hardware is pretty well-known and commonly available.  And if there's a problem with any of them, you know it IMMEDIATELY!  How does a show-stopping bug for well-known and fairly common hardware configurations get past Beta-testers and RC-candidates?  Is it because there aren't enough Beta/RC testers?  Or are they just in such a hurry to advance the technology that they "release now, fix later"?

There are some things that should not be hastily rushed, and I place graphics/wifi services at the top of that list.  There are no "fail safe/fallback options", and I imagine that many/most folks only have 1 machine (constituents of forums like this one excepted!).  How are those folks supposed to trouble shoot their display if they have no display?  How do you google wifi solutions when you have no wifi?  Reminds me of the phone companies who provide a number to call for telephone line problems, or a website to assist those who can't connect to the internet?!

At least MS users can walk their box into Staples or Best Buy for a fix.  Good luck doing that with linux on it!  In many ways, Linux IS superior and has many advantages over MS systems.  But show-stopping bugs such as you described not only concede that advantage, but perhaps cause the linux-user who can't troubleshoot their issues (for the catch-22 reasons cited above) to allow Staples/Best Buy to put MS back on the machine?  Maybe I see this as a bigger deal than it really is, but anything that may cause a linux-user to question the viability of remaining with linux is a "bug" that needs to be addressed, proactively, at any cost.  JMO...

#21 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:32 AM

How come I don't experience any of these bugs in Linux? o:)

#22 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:55 AM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 23 January 2017 - 11:32 AM, said:

How come I don't experience any of these bugs in Linux? o:)

Yeah, me neither.... I have installed LinuxMint on about 5 different HP models at work without any issues.
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#23 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 02:04 PM

I haven't experienced them either (knock on wood!), but I read about others' experiences and think WTH?!  How did THAT happen?  Someone dropped the ball in QC department.  JMO...

#24 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:38 PM

Working with Nvidia or Intel video mebbe? It's AMD that'll turn your hair white if it ain't already.
I decided since the upgrade went smooth as silk on my old soldier I might as well give it a spin on my main machine. I do like the FOSS drivers and it looked great with the ISO.
So as I feared when I did the in place upgrade I ran into the same no-go video problems I experienced months ago with Manjaro. I have had to do a fresh install, rejig my fstab, and reinstall a bunch of packages like wine, Chrome and Spotify. Now all is well. I didn't lose my data because it was backed up on a second drive.

Edited by raymac46, 23 January 2017 - 04:58 PM.

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#25 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 05:25 PM

Funny... I've never had an issue using Nvidia proprietary drivers in Slackware on any of my AMD systems.




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