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Systemd Epic Rant


V.T. Eric Layton

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securitybreach

The original message is completely insane and almost sounds like satire: https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459

 

A good friend of mine's google+ comment on my repost of this:

Iiiiii... can't quite bring myself to agree with any of his points, though at least a couple have some validity, because he's riding that crazy train so fast, he's about to jump the tracks.

 

Systemd isn't perfect, and I do wish it was one option among many, much like Linux's plethora of window manager choices to help alleviate his concerns. Having said that, his level of vitriol over the adoption of systemd itself seems fueled by a mixture of deep hatred towards change, and possibly a stubborn refusal to learn anything new because init did the job just fne, thank you very much.

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V.T. Eric Layton

Ah... fun stuff. Ain't open discussion FUN! :)

 

You think that sounds insane? I think the fellow is making a lot of sense. Difference of opinion make the world go 'round, I s'pose.

 

...fueled by a mixture of deep hatred towards change, and possibly a stubborn refusal to learn anything new because init did the job just fne, thank you very much.

 

Yes! YES! That's it for me exactly. :w00tx100:

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Wow...it is a rant..but his message IMO gets lost the longer it goes on. I think it would be great to have that choice between systemd and int...that int allows greater choce for the user...great! I get that. However. after that point, What I got is he feels personally betrayed and if "You" as a developer or user arent feeling the same way, your an idiot....and cant possibly be as smart as he is to not see what is going on....kind of the same " I'm smarter than you " he accuses others of being.

That is probably not what he meant to convey...and just how I read it

Maybe he can develop his own distro that maintains int...or gather a group of like minded devlopers and produce their owm distro?

It often appears to me that Linux cant get out of it's own way....Linux structure/WM's/applications get hit by "experts" for not being modern enough or standardized, so they try to "fix it:" Then get blasted for "Forcing Change"

I believe sometimes our own ego's become the problem...as Linux becomes more "Average User" friendly..are we less of that geeky bunch we once were, and "just users: like everyone else?

And are we ready for that...or even want it? Just a thought..I know I have a bit of conflict on that :huh:

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It often appears to me that Linux cant get out of it's own way....Linux structure/WM's/applications get hit by "experts" for not being modern enough or standardized, so they try to "fix it:" Then get blasted for "Forcing Change"

I believe sometimes our own ego's become the problem...as Linux becomes more "Average User" friendly..are we less of that geeky bunch we once were, and "just users: like everyone else?

And are we ready for that...or even want it? Just a thought..I know I have a bit of conflict on that :huh:

 

I think you just described ME Barry! I think I'm an "average user" who has adopted Linux as my OS of choice. While my family, friends, and tech supportees think I'm some sort of geek computer genius, I'm much less of the "geeky bunch" than I'm given credit for. I'm "just a user, like everyone else", with above-average abilities to diagnose, troubleshoot, and google-search for repair instructions. While most tech-jargon goes over my head, I can usually parse enough information to connect the dots and determine if that 'solution' overlays with my symptoms. Most of the time, I'm able to locate what I'm looking for; sometimes I come here for help from my linux-genius buddies. I often tell my kids that knowledge is one of the most important and valuable things to acquire in life; but you can't know everything, and it's just as important to know WHO to ask?!

 

Which brings me to the first part of your comment. I've often heard Linux described as an OS that allows you to "scratch your own itch", which I LOVE. But when someone does that, it seems there's always a faction complaining about the dilution of resources from yet another "fork" that wasn't needed; why didn't they just make an upstream contribution? Or maybe the upstream contribution was rejected as "incompatible with the longer term vision" or project goals, etc...

 

I LOVE linux because I LOVE the choices it allows ME to make. Windows does it THEIR way; don't like it...TOUGH...adapt and learn! Want to add a program of functionality to your system? Go buy it and install it! Oh, it isn't interacting smoothly with your system or maybe you just don't like it? Sorry, no refunds for software from an open package! I think some of us (no one here) are so spoiled for choice that we've forgotten how wonderful this basic underlying ethos truly is! They've forgotten that "scratch your own itch" applies to EVERYONE...it isn't "scratch MY itch, for ME".

 

Inasmuch as I sometimes get overwhelmed by the plethora of choices available to me in Linux, I sometimes suffer from "paralysis through analysis" in that there are SO MANY choices to consider, that I sometimes wish more projects would merge and present me with less confusing choices to select an overall perfect solution. But that would be asking others to "scratch MY itch, for ME". And isn't that getting dangerously close to the MS model that I worked so hard to escape from?

 

So after much thought, I changed my wish. I no longer wish for a more manageable group of options to select from; my wish is that Linux-users of the variety that Barry referenced would quit voicing and trying to force THEIR criteria of Linux on others. I would like to say the following to those people:

 

Nearly ALL of us has already escaped from that environment...why would you try to recreate it in Linux? I just don't get it. If you don't like something about your software, quit asking others to choose what you want them to choose; wouldn't it be easier to just CHANGE IT yourself?! It's okay...this isn't MS or Apple...we're not only ALLOWED, but encouraged to do that!

 

Don't like systemd? By all means, stick with init! Or maybe upstart solves your issues? Don't care for Mir? By all means, use Wayland/Weston! Or just find a legacy option to stick with Xorg. Can't find an open-source solution to satisfy your urge? I see nothing wrong with proprietary if that provides what you want! I would absolutely prefer open source, but if open source provides you no suitable options (according to your tastes & criteria), what is wrong with paying for a solution that isn't available for free? At least until a free option becomes available? There are NO perfect solutions; every choice has an element of objection, and everyone's objection will NOT be the same. Choice is a good thing, and more choices are a better thing! In a contest of popularity, good solutions will prevail over bad solutions. Bad solutions will eventually wilt and die on the vine, while some of those good solutions will mature and evolve into better solutions.

 

So choose what works for YOU and let the process work itself out! And, by all means, share your process of discovery and experience, and the knowledge you acquired! But quit drawing YOUR conclusions on MY behalf! I may not be an expert like you, but I'm way smarter than you apparently think I am!!!

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Guest LilBambi

As a long time Linux user, I have to say I actually felt Christopher Barry was saying (in a more vulgar way than I would ever do) but still he was saying how I feel about all this systemd stuff.

 

As long as it left my Debian alone, I was fine that others chose to go that direction, but it's at my door now with Jessie and I am not at all happy about it.

 

In fact, I may be needing to move to Slackware or Gentoo when Wheezy LTS ends. I will hold out as long as I can.

 

I am also not at all happy that my favorite KDE will be so dependent upon systemd.

 

EVERYTHING doesn't have to be tied into this One Ring to Rule Them All philosophy.

 

I begin to foresee a very sad fork in GNU Linux over this.

Edited by LilBambi
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Like I said, I'm conflicted also...One of the reasons Linux is for me, is the choices...I cant begin to tell how many distros I've plowed through(not to mention CDR's DVDR's ) I do understand where Christopher is coming from, but for me, from when I first started using linux what I have noticed ,,,is the one consistant thing is change,,,just the rate a change varies depending on the distro. I'm not saying that the changes were good or bad...only that they occured. Some I liked, others well..not so much. What I have noticed is that Linux developers are like anyone else and can be overcome by events ...doesn't matter if it is systemd , KDE 4 , Gome..XFree to Xorg ..sometimes as a an agreed change ..others due to changes elsewhere. To expect them to be otherwise, might be a little unrealistic.

 

As for the one ring theory...Maybe I read worng for a long time...but isnt that what alot or users/experts pounded on linux for?

 

 

Personally If I were a developer, giving my time to develop this stuff seeing how some react..think I would pulled chocks and chains a long time ago

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V.T. Eric Layton

Well, here's how it works, folks...

 

Progress and improvements always come packaged with advantages and disadvantages. Here are just a couple examples:

  • Automobiles - Improvements in gas mileage, engine efficiency, safety, etc. were all made possible by the advent of the computer control. Unfortunately, this also complicated the automobile to the point where neither neighborhood mechanics nor owners can effectively service them. Parts and service are now highly specialized and expensive. The automobile industry is not "open source," unfortunately. This means that we no longer have a choice. All new autos are technologically advanced and, by extension, more complicated.

  • Electronics - Improvements in design, micro-electronics, and production led to today's very miniaturized devices, such as your cell phone or mp3 player. This opened the door to amazing things that only Dick Tracy had access to prior to this. The downside, unfortunately, is that devices are cheap, but also not worth repairing. This leads to landfill waste, loss of entire career fields in service and parts manufacture/sales, etc.

So, it's the same with operating systems. The modernization of the Microsoft Windows platform has had its fans and detractors at every step of the way. We become attached to the things we get used to. We develop comfortable relationships with them. When change comes, we don't always rush to embrace it; that is the forte of the adventurist, entrepreneur, and adrenalin junkie. Most of us normal blokes like it best when things just stay the same. The "if it works, don't fix it" crowd is usually the majority; particularly as we age. Older folks, by nature, don't care at all for change because we've seen too much of it and don't like the results. ;)

 

Here we are discussing the future of GNU/Linux. To me, as Hedon discusses, Linux has always been about choice. I made the choice to leave my comfortable Windows XP existence to come to the unknown realm of GNU/Linux-Open Source. It was scary at first, but now it too has become that comfortable old pair of slippers I wear when sitting in my recliner on those cold winter nights with that good book in one hand and that warm cup 'o joe in the other. People are trying to change my Linux! *GASP*

 

Actually, my Linux has been changing for the entire eight years that I've been using it as a primary operating system. Nothing stays the same... Gnome 2 is gone, as is KDE 3.5, and Ubuntu 6.0 Dapper Drake. They were all glorious and wonderful in their day, but their day was long ago. Change is inevitable. Choice may suffer because of this. The reason is that there may not be devs willing to maintain older apps that we all use now. While many distributions may go to systemd, which currently has active dev support, other options such as init may go by the wayside through neglect. Unless the dev teams of individual distributions like Slackware want to maintain init on their own, it may be doomed.

 

While we like to think that the GNU/Linux and Open Source communities are these large hives of activity and productivity, they're not. Reality is that only a small core group maintains all this stuff. If that small core group decides to advance KDE to version 4, then who's going to argue? If that small core group decides that the kernel will no longer support init, who's going to argue. And if anyone does argue, what affect, if any, will it have? The small core group still runs the ranch.

 

I don't know what the solution(s) to this systemd/init controversy might be. As Fran mentions, it could all end up in a BIG FORKING mess. I'll stick with my Slackware and watch you folks battle it out. If Pat V. and Slackware fall by the wayside, I may have to go to BSD. ;)

 

Later...

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V.T. Eric Layton

Hey Josh...

 

Dropping names at G+???

 

I received this via email:

 

photo.jpg

 

Josh Sabboth mentioned you in a comment on Josh Sabboth's post.

 

G+ thread --> http://tinyurl.com/kppfw3z

 

I don't know why I'm still on G+. I went through the whole delete my account BS with them years ago. Once on the Internet, never gone from the Internet. I'm immortal!

 

Ew3caNu.png

 

Er... nevermind.

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securitybreach

Hey Josh...

 

Dropping names at G+???

 

I received this via email:

 

[/size][/color]

 

G+ thread --> http://tinyurl.com/kppfw3z

 

I don't know why I'm still on G+. I went through the whole delete my account BS with them years ago. Once on the Internet, never gone from the Internet. I'm immortal!

 

It hides your name but emails you so you can read a link even if you do not have a G+ account. See:

 

EfCqVLK.png

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securitybreach

You all forget the main advantage, systemd makes a lot of things so much easier to do, It has modular services that are very simple to write(create). Services can start in parallel which makes boot times so much faster. Very easy to debug service issues with a great global service diagnostic, journaltl -xn. Systemd supports dbus and sockets so you can easily control it and trigger service starting from other applications. Very easy syntax. You can even get logs for a specific process, unit or target. Those are just some of the ones I could think off the top of my head.

 

 

You all really do not see the advantages of using systemd. Trust me, I used init for 10 years and systemd is much better and easier to work with than init.

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V.T. Eric Layton

It's easier to be just another part of the collective, too. Easier isn't always better.

 

You should read Ignorant Guru's post that I linked to above. It will make you sit back and think a bit. Remember, BIG GOV does not like Linux or open source. BIG GOV prefers commercial software with easy backdoor access that everyone is forced to use because there is no longer any choice.

 

I don't really think there's a big conspiracy here, but... well... you never know, do ya'? ;)

 

Oh, and the comments on Guru's article are pretty fun, too. :w00t:

 

A lot of this is pretty over the top stuff for us little Linux user peons, but time will reveal all. One day we might look back and say, "Wow! So-and-so was right." Who knows?

 

Off to watch Perry Mason...

Edited by V.T. Eric Layton
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securitybreach

Well it is open source.... hard to hide in plain sight.

 

I see a lot of this as FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

 

You should read Ignorant Guru's post that I linked to above. It will make you sit back and think a bit. Remember, BIG GOV does not like Linux or open source. BIG GOV prefers commercial software with easy backdoor access that everyone is forced to use because there is no longer any choice.

 

Well he clearly doesn't know how to use it, and even says so. Just because you do not know how to use it, doesn't make it a bad thing.

 

His discussion is not a tirade against systemd, but he too warns of the complexity of the system and its XML (even javascript-based?) configuration files,

 

Completely false as it is not XML or javascript based as seen here:

 

[unit]
Description=Wired Static IP Connectivity
Wants=network.target
Before=network.target

[service]
Type=oneshot
RemainAfterExit=yes
EnvironmentFile=/etc/conf.d/network
ExecStart=/sbin/ip link set dev enp3s0 up
ExecStart=/sbin/ip addr add 192.168.1.2/24 broadcast 192.168.1.255 dev enp3s0
ExecStart=/sbin/ip route add default via 192.168.1.1

ExecStop=/sbin/ip addr flush dev enp3s0
ExecStop=/sbin/ip link set dev enp3s0 down

[install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target

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Guest LilBambi

I think the big thing is to keep an open mind ... in both areas.

 

If many go to systemd as it looks like they have, those that don't like that or KDE will be happy enough since there are others that will stay with init too.

 

I really think there will be a forkin' going on with Linux over this one.

 

But that's OK too. It's all about choice with Linux and always has been.

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V.T. Eric Layton

This stuff is all way to techie for me. I'm just happy my operating system works. I hope it continues to do so.

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LOL..I think his rant isnt really about systemd directly, but more about changes the others control. And that is ok, it does make for a fun read.

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Ironically, I do NOT like change, unless I'm the one who initiates it. I like to be able to changes things on a whim; while I do not like others to change things at all. I'm a hypocrite, and I can live with that label...

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LOL I think we all are to some degree... :D at least I know i can be that way...I've heard it is a human trait...Well that's my line and I'm sticking to it :rolleyes:

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V.T. Eric Layton

Ironically, I do NOT like change, unless I'm the one who initiates it. I like to be able to changes things on a whim; while I do not like others to change things at all. I'm a hypocrite, and I can live with that label...

 

Truly a man after my own heart. ;)

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securitybreach

From a comment on one of my G+ posts:

 

To say that systemd isn't modular is crazy. Is there a unified control interface for daemons? yes. Did SysVinit do that differently? No. The only difference is that systemd removes the boilerplate of all those crap scripts to the most basic service unit being around four lines.

 

Furthermore, things that systemd has created which "extend" beyond its purview (e.g., systemd-networkd) are implemented as separate binaries which integrate with the original client.

 

systemd is a huge improvement over SysV, and appeals to UNIX philosophy more than SysV did in almost any case (just try and tell me that a 70 line bash script is simpler than a four line service unit, I dare you).

 

Does systemd have problems? Absolutely. Is its problem that it's not simple? No. Is its problem that its maintainers have some serious NIH syndrome? Maybe, but C encourages NIH anyway.

 

If you have a technical dislike about systemd (e.g., that the journal is binary instead of flat-text), great! Let's talk about it and try to improve it. But let's stop with all the hate because it "does more than it should."

 

 

https://plus.google....sts/dU2KgfAHvoo

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My only experience so far with systemd is in setting up an Arch Linux system. I didn't find it all that scary and it actually was pretty nifty when it came to configuring a desktop wifi adapter.

It's not something that really worries me right now, since I'm using Linux Mint 17 LTS and that still uses Upstart and will for a while, I think.

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V.T. Eric Layton

"It's perfectly safe."

 

"It's a miracle of modern technology."

 

"It will solve so many issues."

 

"It's going to revolutionize treatment."

 

These were all things said at the time by experts in the field regarding a new procedure called a frontal lobotomy.

 

Just saying...

 

's advocate>

 

o:)

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"It's perfectly safe."

"It's a miracle of modern technology."

"It will solve so many issues."

"It's going to revolutionize treatment."

 

These were all things said at the time by experts in the field regarding a new procedure called a frontal lobotomy.

Just saying...

</devil's advocate>

o:)

wait, are you saying frontal lobotomy is not all those things???
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