Nitrogen in tires!

[ibe98765]

Seems this is a big new trend. Saw in the October issue of Costco's magazine that they will be using pure nitrogen, instead of compressed air to fill tires they install. Apparently, pure nitrogen helps tires last longer.

Chemical engineering Using nitrogen instead of compressed air has distinct advantages, which lead to immediate benefits for the vehicle owner. 1. It has more mass, so it migrates through the tire three to four times slower. The result: Tires hold their psi longer. 2. It runs about 20% cooler. Less heat results in less tire degradation. 3. It drastically reduces oxidation on the rim and inner-liner (nitrogen systems almost totally eliminate oxygen -- the cause of oxidation -- from the mix). 4. It is environmentally safe.

Some links:http://www.tirelast.com/http://www.mtdealer.com/t_inside.cfm?actio...et&storyID=1207http://www.tirebusiness.com/subscriber/opi...3&id=1082990463Popular Mechanics

[epp_b]

Cool

[Guest Paracelsus]

Although I haven't read the links yet... this sound utterly absurd1) Nitrogen - Atomic Mass 14 vs Oxygen - Atomic Mass 16So where does the Nitrogen get more mass?? :hmm:2) How is Nitrogen on the inside of the tire (which is relatively immune from wear) going to reduce Oxidation, when the exterior of the tire is exposed to the atmosphere (~21% Oxygen; ~78% Nitrogen) :hmm:I'll reserve final judgment until I have time to read the links. But as a Chemist, the premise is counterintuitive at best.For anyone interested: Composition of Earth's Atmosphere

[-ct-]

2nd problemsupplyjust WHERE do you expect to be able to get nitrogen to do this? the local auto parts store sure isn't gonna have itand,4. It is environmentally safe.what? air isn't safe? seems like a *stupid* point to have been made by those promoting itand,co$t - there's no way anyone's gonna be convinced to spend that much more when your typical gas station has a free air pump

[Guest Paracelsus]

2nd problemsupplyjust WHERE do you expect to be able to get nitrogen to do this? the local auto parts store sure isn't gonna have it

Evidently...One of the devices being marketed (mainly to auto shops and service stations) is a Nitrogen Generator. These are fairly common in Analytical Laboratories (I have one here ). Basically, they remove the Oxygen (and trace gases); water vapor; etc., from air and leave relatively pure dry Nitrogen. I've read over the links and their ancillary links and come to a final conclusion.While I'll concede that removing water vapor; particulates; trace petroleum residues or other solvents, that might be present is a good idea...The remaining premises are entirely fallacious.there is no good reason why the same type of filtering and scrubbing devices outfitted to a Nitrogen Generator couldn't just as well be attached to a compressed air tire filler.As for the "Oxidation" argument??...One of the articles bemoans the dangers of Oxygen from inside the tire "migrating" through the tire and damaging the tread. Lord Have Mercy!!! :rolleyes:on anyone who fall for that Crock o' (fill in the blank)There is absolutely no physical or chemical rationale for the "Migrating Oxygen" to cause more damage to the tire tread, then the oxygen in the outside atmosphere that is already in constant contact with the tire.For that matter...I could make just as good an argument that the outside air is more of a danger since at the point of contact between the tire, road, and atmosphere...The air is undergoing compression as the tire rotates and being forced INTO the tire tread. :happyroll:Equally plausible... Just as RidiculousI spent coffee break this morning discussing this with several of my colleagues... Chemists; Materials Scientists; and Engineers, all.Other than the "Clean & Dry" issue, the unanimous consensus was...BOGUS

[littlebone]

And if you ever find that your car has broken down and you are in a vacuum, you can't do a short term survival trek to find oxygen by breathing the air from your tires. I'd pass on this for that alone.

[Peachy]

I'm skeptical about the merits of pure nitrogen for your tires, but, I found this on Bridgestone's Japanese web site:

The Bridgestone Service Network is reinforcing our presence in truck and bus tires. Dealers in that network provide 24-hour highway service and dispatch advisors to fleet operators to consult about tire-related issues. They also conduct safety seminars. The dealers even maintain tanks for filling tires with nitrogen, which leaks through rubber more slowly than air does.

http://www.bridgestone.co.jp/ir/ar/2000/05japan.html

[AbeL]

Won't pure nitrogen cause tire squeal to be higher pitch? Or is that helium?

[NRD]

And if you ever find that your car has broken down and you are in a vacuum, you can't do a short term survival trek to find oxygen by breathing the air from your tires. I'd pass on this for that alone.

Excellent point littleboneWhenever I take my Warp powered auto for a jaunt in deep space, its comforting to know I can just suck on my tire stems if the Oxy tanks fail. Can't do that with Nitrogen.

[longgone]

On this particular subject .. I ... Must add my $1.298 ... not so much about nitrogen filled tires but about tires in general. As I have mentioned a time or two .. my current and chosen profession is the owner/operator of a semi tractor/trailer (18 wheeler), air will escape from a tire, even if said tire is brand new and is mounted up on a brand new wheel, it takes a long time but it does happen. Take for example an 11Rx24.5 (radial, steel belted) filled to recommended pressure of 110psi, and it is used as the spare and not run on the road, I can say without any doubt that if you check same tire after 30 days it wii no longer be at 110psi. What will the pressure be ... good question .. probably 5-10 lbs less, not much but at 400-600.00 per tire you want them to last a long time.Now about the inside of the tire, as that tire rolls on down the highway the air inside heats up and expands, conversely, when you shut down for the day, this same air cools, contracts and the moisture condenses inside the tire. This is not good for the tire (over time can rot the tire), nor the wheel (causes rust/oxidization). I changed/repaired enough tires when I first started out to see what can happen both inside and out.

[Guest Paracelsus]

Good points, Dale!We argued, at Coffee Break, about the potential for increased rates of Oxidation as the temperature in the tires increases...But our conclusion was that the elevated temperature inside tires could not reach a level high enough to dramatically increase Oxidation rate much above that at ambient temps.I will concede that if pure Nitrogen were to effectively remain at a lower temperature during realistic driving regimes, this could have some benefit.However, I'm still bugged by the claim of lower gas loss through "migration", compared to standard air. It really doesn't make any sense... and I would need to see unbiased data in this regard. It seems to me that any gas loss via this mechanism would be outweighed by that lost through faulty, or improperly maintained, valves.Nitrogen is unarguably a smaller atom (look at a Periodic Table) than Oxygen.Nitrogen (as N2) has a much greater diatomic bond strength than Oxygen (226.8 vs 188.86 KCal/mole). Molecules with higher bond strengths (in the diatomic state) are generally smaller.I'm still looking for some data on Diatomic Molecular Radii.Concerning the link in Peachy's post...I don't give a hoot how many Tire Manufacturers fall for this. Until I'm shown good, solid, unbiased, evidence... this subject shall remain on my Hog Wash list. ;)Along with:

• Oxygenated "Power Drinks"
• Shoe Inserts with Magnets
• Vitamin O
• "Dream Away" Weight Loss Pills
• George Bush (Oopps... how'd he slip in here)
• Dick Cheney (That's Better)
• And a lot of other things.

[Ed_P]

Paracelsus if you want to make it in marketing you will have to drop this logical, fact filled, thought process. Think outside the box. Rather than Nitogen a i r think Nitrogen l i q u i d.

[Guest Paracelsus]

Oh! Ed!!...But then we'd need tires that can maintain cryogenic temperatures (~ -196°C) :hmm:As for marketing...I'd rather die

[trigggl]

In the aviation industry Nitrogen bottles are kept around to inflate tires and pressurize landing gear. I don't remember the exact reasons, but I don't think it's as big of a deal for cars. I think regular air does weaken the tires.

[longgone]

Wellll.......... if nitrogen is thicker (more dense) than compressed air I could understand a slower loss as it would take longer for the more dense substance to "migrate" to the atmosphere, BUT Paracelsus that is where your knowledge comes into play and can explain that sort of stuff.Other than a blow out or puncture, a tire normally loses air through faulty valve stem seating (where the valve stem goes through the wheel), faulty valve stem core, or contaminated/corroded bead surfaces. The "migration" (have the geese flown south yet) story would be the slowest means of air loss IMHO.One last item,,, does nitrogen expand as it heats up, does it even heat up ???

[ross549]

Dale....Nitrogen is just like any other gas, it can be heated and cooled (liquid nitrogen is fun to play with, but is very dangerous in the wrong hands), and when it is heated, it will expand.

[longgone]

Adam... thank you for that bit of knowledge which brings up the question .... what is its expansion properties vs plain old compressed air... would it be enough to "in theory" to blow the tire right off the wheel ????

[Guest Paracelsus]

OK...I'm gonna look for the CTE's (Coefficient of Thermal Expansion) for N2 and regular air, and Thermal Conductivity properties. I doubt there will be much difference, as air is ~78% nitrogen anyway.I have found the Diatomic Radii of N2 & O2* N2 = 1.4 Ã…* O2 = 1.32 Ã…So... Diatomic Nitrogen is 0.08 angstroms larger than O2. And again... air is only ~21% Oxygen. Therefore, the migration theory really doesn't seem to hold much water. :thumbsdown:Concerning the preference for keeping cylinders of Nitrogen handy instead of compressed air??I use many different compressed gases in the Lab. All have certain "Shelf Lives" from the date of last fill. All have different rates of reaction with the metals that comprise the cylinder. Since compressed air contains oxygen, it will corrode the interior of the cylinder over time, and thus have a shorter "recommended storage time" than Nitrogen.This can translate into reduced storage costs... As Nitrogen cylinders will not require "recycling & cleaning" as frequently as those containing compressed air.

[ibe98765]

Well...

Nitrogen Instead of AirMost of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nascar5.htm

[georgeg4]

i am neither a scientist nor a truckdriver but i think we are all missing a point here and that is air and/or nitrogen like water will take the path of least resistance . and in a tire that path imho is the point where the rubber tire meets the steel rim . i would believe that any loss would first be there . and to answer in advance longgones submission in his post . when a tire is not mounted to a vehicle it is still subject to temperature changes and slight expansion and contraction which would allow anything inside said tire which is under pressure allready ( moreso in a truck tire at 110 lbs per square inch ) to escape at a slow rate .

[Guest Paracelsus]

Nitrogen Instead of AirMost of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up.http://auto.howstuffworks.com/nascar5.htm

I can accept that. But it's an almost entirely different rationale than what was presented originally.And I reiterate...There is no justifiably reason why the mechanisms applied to Nitrogen Generators for the removal of water vapor... or any other "contaminants"... could not also be put in place with compressed air.NASCAR not withstanding...Many otherwise intelligent and reputable people and organizations fall victims of Pseudo-Science.And excepting the very few aspects of the theory as originally presented... and to which I have already conceded...The "Theory" is as Pseudo, as any Science can get :thumbsdown:I'm going to try to find some time this weekend to see if the SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) or CU (Consumer's Union, parent of Consumer Reports) have weighed in on this subject.I might find that a wee bit more digestible than what the NASCAR yahoos have to say. BTW...NASCAR was unarguably founded by a bunch of Good-ol-Boy Moonshiners. They could undoubtedly Whomp My A-- when it comes to working knowledge of automobiles... But I seriously doubt the laws of Physics & Chemistry work any differently in their tires

[georgeg4]

absolutely paracelsus . i was not trying to disagree with your anology i was merely attempting to add to it with what i thought was an overlooked point . i doubt that there is any good reason why air should be replaced in tires except to line someones pockets . since you are originally from a small town you are probably familiar with the practice of " LOADING " tractor tires . where the air was replaced with a solution of sodium . simply to add weight and therefore traction to tractor tires . this practice also was discontinued because it was found to be impractical since they had the same leakage problem with those tires .and that is where the leakage ocurred . and i know you are aware that air and nitrogen are both more likely to leak than a saline solution .

[Guest Paracelsus]

Oopps!! Sorry George...We must have been composing at the same time! :">My Diatribe was solely in response to IBE98765's last post.You're wasn't even there yet. (I've edited for clarity) (Talk about being "Too Serious" )

[ibe98765]

Many otherwise intelligent and reputable people and organizations fall victims of Pseudo-Science.

I suggest that at this point, it would be better to do the research FIRST before further "hypothesizing" or "guessing" on the issue. Otherwise, theis thread will deterioriate into a mish-mash that will be impossible to follow. As the old saying goes - common sense isn't all that common (and often isn't logical nor scientific either). Y'all are simply GUESSING. Please provide some links to back up your future statements.

[Guest Paracelsus]

Y'all are simply GUESSING.  Please provide some links to back up your future statements.

HAH!!!! That is almost too funny for words!!!There is NO guessing involved.I've posted the physical parameters.It is Physical Science... Pure and SimpleLook up that which I have posted in the BIBLE... The the CRC "Handbook of Chemistry & Physics"The Laws of Nature do not require LINKS on the Internet, to hold true.Physical Law does not work within the constraints that only "Theories" with "Internet Justifications", are acceptable. Crawl out from under your "Cyber Rock"!!!There are some points in the premise that are worth consideration (and I have already stated such). But the basic premise... from the original post, IS NOT!I eagerly await your refutation of Diatomic Bond Strengths.... Diatomic Radius... or any of the other Physical Parameters which I have posted in this thread.I will gladly hold my own against challenge, as you have presented in "Socio-Economic" theory, to "Lewmur"Please bare in mind, however...Physical Law, is not as easily argued against as Political/Economic Theories

[ibe98765]

Hey bud - my point was that you've been jumping all over the place, fluttering around the subject like a hummingbird in heat! Rather than address the points in a calm, scientific manner, you post random thoughts, acknowledge that you will have to do more research, jump to conclusions prior to doing that research and intersperse what you write with all kinds of simlies, bold type, color and junk like "ridiculous", "lord have mercy", "crock o' (fill in the blank)", etc.

1) Nitrogen - Atomic Mass 14 vs Oxygen - Atomic Mass 16So where does the Nitrogen get more mass??

In this first question you posted, you wondered how Nitrogen could have more mass than Oxygen. Unfortunately, in your rush to post, you made an incorrect assumption that the comparison was between pure N & O and you continued on with that assumption through multiple posts. It isn't. It's between pure N and AIR. And as you know, air is made up of more than just N+O. See this link for detail:http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/8_679.htmlYou can see that DRY air has approximately the same molecular mass as pure N. Now add in some water vapor and AIR has LESS mass than pure N. The warmer the air, the more water vapor it can hold (and it's not a linear function) and the lower the mass of the air will be.I believe this explanation SHOULD address your points about the potential for N to leak at a slower rate than AIR due to mass differences.

2) How is Nitrogen on the inside of the tire (which is relatively immune from wear) going to reduce Oxidation, when the exterior of the tire is exposed to the atmosphere (~21% Oxygen; ~78% Nitrogen)

O is the source of oxidation. If O is eliminated, then oxidation on the INSIDE of the tire is reduced and/or eliminated. This MAY increase the life of the tire. It certainly won't have a negative effect. Also, in researching this, I came across some notes that fires sometimes occur on the inside of tires, which is very dangerous for bystanders. N is inert and would not be susceptible to this problem.And since this discussion is about putting N INSIDE the tire, wandering off into what is happening on the outside of the tire serves no useful purpose.

  And I reiterate...There is no justifiably reason why the mechanisms applied to Nitrogen Generators for the removal of water vapor... or any other "contaminants"... could not also be put in place with compressed air.NASCAR not withstanding...Many otherwise intelligent and reputable people and organizations fall victims of Pseudo-Science.

But this is EXACTLY what is being done! A machine is used to separate the N from regular air! Where did you think the N was coming from?????See:http://www.parker.com/ead/cm2.asp?cmid=3003http://www.dwt-gmbh.de/english/nitrogen-generators.htmhttp://www.dwt-gmbh.de/english/reifengas_whyn2_e.htmMy point is, as I myself have been told before, sometimes one is too smart for their own good. Having too much knowledge about a subject sometimes makes one jump to erronious conclusions. A closer reading of what was posted and perhaps a little research in advance of ripping off a post would have been apropos.You're welcome (in advance)...

[Guest Paracelsus]

:">I should have known better then to argue with Superman. Yes...I did take the Oxidation issue much too strongly...But Pseudo-Science is a pet peeve...And while I do have more to say on this particular topic... (Please excuse me . The demands of a career/life are oft times inconvenient)I'm currently laughing too heartily to be able to keep my fingers well placed on the keyboard. I am forever indebted, for your having dissected and devoured my reason, more graciously than that of Lewmur. (Would you like Fava Beans with that??)

fluttering around the subject like a hummingbird in heat!

I'll have to add that to the list of phrases I want carved on my Tombstone.BTW...You could do well to use some smilies. They won't make you less reputable. At least to 51-99 out of 100 Highlanders.

[longgone]

Ding ... (need a bell smiley)ROUND 2

[Guest Paracelsus]

Ding ... (need a bell smiley)ROUND 2

... So said the Man Commanding a Battleship

[longgone]

(Oh nn.. I have become a museum) .. a sign of time passing by ...

... So said the Man Commanding a Battleship tongue.gif harhar.gif whistling.gif innocent.gif