Faxes, Modems and Broadband Cable

[genegold]

Will an internal 56k modem work with digital broadband cable (Bresnan)? My goal is to send faxes occasionally. The cable installer said a fax machine would work if I use a double phone cord plug-in adapter at the back of the cable co's modem, but I didn't ask about my internal. The fax machine is not unpacked yet, so I was wondering if the internal modem would work. Thanks.

[ross549]

Assuming the digital telephone modem hooked to the cable line puts out a POTS (Plain Old Telephone System) signal, your modem should work fine as a fax. If not, then you may run into issues.Adam

[genegold]

Will an internal 56k modem work with digital broadband cable (Bresnan)? My goal is to send faxes occasionally. The cable installer said a fax machine would work if I use a double phone cord plug-in adapter at the back of the cable co's modem, but I didn't ask about my internal. The fax machine is not unpacked yet, so I was wondering if the internal modem would work. Thanks.

Quick way to figure out if it does, other than calling customer service? I've got a phone cord running from computer modem "line" to phone output on back of cable modem, and Motorola's sm56hlpr.exe loading at startup, but XP is saying modem is not functional. Thanks.

[goretsky]

Hello,I am assuming you have purchased VoIP telephone service from your cable Internet provider, is that correct?Have you tried plugging an analog phone in where you plan on installing the fax machine and dialing another number to verify that calls can be made properly from a telephone plugged into the jack?Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

[Tushman]

Will an internal 56k modem work with digital broadband cable (Bresnan)? My goal is to send faxes occasionally. The cable installer said a fax machine would work if I use a double phone cord plug-in adapter at the back of the cable co's modem, but I didn't ask about my internal. The fax machine is not unpacked yet, so I was wondering if the internal modem would work. Thanks.

I'd be very surprised if you did manage to get it to work. The signal coming out of the DSL modem is digital. I very much doubt you will be able to send faxes from your PC.

[genegold]

This is neither VoIP nor DSL, but broadband digital cable (Bresnan Communications, Montana). Though perhaps the answer is the same as DSL(?).The internal computer modem has two jacks, one "line" and the other "phone." With Line hooked to Bresnan's modem, hooking an analog phone into the computer modem's phone jack gets a dial tone (my regular analog desk phone is also plugged into the back of Bresnan's modem with a dual connecter). Just on starting the computer the internal modem alone doesn't seem to be operative.There was a time up to last year when my internal modem did work with, for example, Comcast broadband cable in Minnesota, but I think there's been a change in the signal (all digital?) used by many cable companies (Comcast, Bresnan) that changed things. Given the widespread availability of broadband digital cable telephony, I was wondering if the old internal modem is a thing of the past or if there's a way to still use them.

[Tushman]

This is neither VoIP nor DSL, but broadband digital cable (Bresnan Communications, Montana). Though perhaps the answer is the same as DSL(?).The internal computer modem has two jacks, one "line" and the other "phone." With Line hooked to Bresnan's modem, hooking an analog phone into the computer modem's phone jack gets a dial tone (my regular analog desk phone is also plugged into the back of Bresnan's modem with a dual connecter). Just on starting the computer the internal modem alone doesn't seem to be operative.There was a time up to last year when my internal modem did work with, for example, Comcast broadband cable in Minnesota, but I think there's been a change in the signal (all digital?) used by many cable companies (Comcast, Bresnan) that changed things. Given the widespread availability of broadband digital cable telephony, I was wondering if the old internal modem is a thing of the past or if there's a way to still use them.

I am in no way an expert in this subject matter, but I still don't see how you could possibly get a purely digital network to process a fax signal (analog). According to the front page of the Bresnan Digital website, it states:

Bresnan high-speed Internet installation utilizes the company's improved fiber and coaxial cable network to offer the fastest, the most reliable Internet access available.

http://www.everythingdsl.com/bresnan/bresnan/Pay particular attention to the words fiber and coaxial. Edited August 18, 2008 by Tushman

[ross549]

He is getting digital telephone service from his cable provider. That service is provided by a second modem that takes the POTS signal and converts it to a digital signal that can be sent over the cable service's lines. Cox cable offers the same thing, as do most of the cable providers.If the phone hooked to the phone jack works, then the issue will be the modem itself. Adam

[lewmur]

He is getting digital telephone service from his cable provider. That service is provided by a second modem that takes the POTS signal and converts it to a digital signal that can be sent over the cable service's lines. Cox cable offers the same thing, as do most of the cable providers.If the phone hooked to the phone jack works, then the issue will be the modem itself. Adam

I agree with you, Adam. The problem is with his Internal Modem and not with the Broadband setup. Like you said, if the telephone gets a dialtone from the phone jack on the Int Mod, then the cables are connected properly and the Int Mod should work.Lew

[Tushman]

He is getting digital telephone service from his cable provider. That service is provided by a second modem that takes the POTS signal and converts it to a digital signal that can be sent over the cable service's lines. Cox cable offers the same thing, as do most of the cable providers.If the phone hooked to the phone jack works, then the issue will be the modem itself. Adam

I wasn't aware he was getting digital telephone service from his ISP, not to mention the fact that Genegold stated above it is NOT dsl service he's getting. I saw the word coaxial on the website and assumed he was getting broadband cable. Can you really get digital telephone service via coax?By the way, I'd like to know out of curiosity how a regular telephone cord with a RJ11/14 jack would fit into a regular DSL modem with a RJ44 port. Edited August 18, 2008 by Tushman

[genegold]

In thinking some more about this, the phone I have connected to the Bresnan modem - and yes, this is dedicated digital phone line - has an pulse/tone selector, the latter selection making it compatible with a digital signal. However, the internal modem, a Motorola SM56, is analog, without a digital processor. For example, I found this: "The Motorola SM56 is a SoftModem chipset - lacking a DSP (digital signal processor)... This type of modem is also known as HSP (host signal processor)." - http://www.modemsite.com/56k/sm56.asp. As for why I can get a dial tone out of the modem's phone jack (with Line connected), I suspect it's like some other electronic devices that are wired to be able to pass a signal between input/output plugs without actually engaging the main circuit electronics. Does that make sense?Although I assume the internal modem's original market was generated by the need for users to dial-up ISPs and send faxes from a computer, I would think that for convenience sake there is still a market for cheap digitally-compatible internal modems.

[lewmur]

In thinking some more about this, the phone I have connected to the Bresnan modem - and yes, this is dedicated digital phone line - has an pulse/tone selector, the latter selection making it compatible with a digital signal. However, the internal modem, a Motorola SM56, is analog, without a digital processor. For example, I found this: "The Motorola SM56 is a SoftModem chipset - lacking a DSP (digital signal processor)... This type of modem is also known as HSP (host signal processor)." - http://www.modemsite.com/56k/sm56.asp. As for why I can get a dial tone out of the modem's phone jack (with Line connected), I suspect it's like some other electronic devices that are wired to be able to pass a signal between input/output plugs without actually engaging the main circuit electronics. Does that make sense?Although I assume the internal modem's original market was generated by the need for users to dial-up ISPs and send faxes from a computer, I would think that for convenience sake there is still a market for cheap digitally-compatible internal modems.

If you can plug a standard telephone into the jack where you are plugging in the modem, and make phone calls, then it should work. If, OTOH, the jack requires a "digital" phone, then it isn't going to work. IOW, if you can take a $10 phone from Wal-Mart and have it work, which you indicated by saying you "got a dialtone," then the Int Mod should work. If you have to use a $100 handset provided by your "cable" co., then you are flat out of luck.BTW, the "type" of Int Mod in your computer has nothing to do with it. What does matter, if you do have a "digital" phone system, is whether or not the "digital handset" provided by the "cable co.," has an "analog" jack on it. IOW, the "handset" or "phone" provided by the "cable co." in a "digital" phone system, will often have an "analog" jack on it to provide service for things like a computer modem or fax machine. In that case, the "handset" converts the "analog" signal to "digital" and relays it to the system. Edited August 18, 2008 by lewmur

[genegold]

If you can plug a standard telephone into the jack where you are plugging in the modem, and make phone calls, then it should work. If, OTOH, the jack requires a "digital" phone, then it isn't going to work. IOW, if you can take a $10 phone from Wal-Mart and have it work, which you indicated by saying you "got a dialtone," then the Int Mod should work. If you have to use a $100 handset provided by your "cable" co., then you are flat out of luck.BTW, the "type" of Int Mod in your computer has nothing to do with it.

Ok if that's true, I'd be interested to understand better the purpose of the pulse/touch tone switch on (older) phones. I thought the two handle signals differently and thus while the phone will work with either, they had different capabilities in interacting with the rest of the phone world. It's of course possible that my internal modem has gone bad sitting there unused for the past 14 months - or could it be the analog internal modem needs a different signal than Bresnan is providing? When I moved from St. Paul to Minneapolis last year and they switched me over to a fully digital phone signal, I remember the Comcast installer saying that if I wanted to use the internal modem I'd need another line, but maybe that wasn't correct. Also, here in Montana, the installer said if I want to plug-in multiple phones around the unit, I'd need to buy a handheld set with a base unit (if that's relevant).

[genegold]

Those of you who said it should work are correct, as I've now gotten the modem recognized. The answer turns out to be (very) embarassingly simple. I just switched slots the modem was in and, well - when I last closed the case, I was short a screw and skimped on the modem's attachment to the case. I'm guessing it wasn't grounded. Sorry for the trouble. Gene

[lewmur]

Ok if that's true, I'd be interested to understand better the purpose of the pulse/touch tone switch on (older) phones. I thought the two handle signals differently and thus while the phone will work with either, they had different capabilities in interacting with the rest of the phone world. It's of course possible that my internal modem has gone bad sitting there unused for the past 14 months - or could it be the analog internal modem needs a different signal than Bresnan is providing? When I moved from St. Paul to Minneapolis last year and they switched me over to a fully digital phone signal, I remember the Comcast installer saying that if I wanted to use the internal modem I'd need another line, but maybe that wasn't correct. Also, here in Montana, the installer said if I want to plug-in multiple phones around the unit, I'd need to buy a handheld set with a base unit (if that's relevant).

Ah, you must be young!!! Guess you don't remember the old "rotary dial" telephones used before "touch tone" phones were invented. Believe it or not, there are still some remote areas where the exchange has never been modernized to accept "touch tone" dialing. To use a modem in those areas you must set them to imitate the "pulse dialing" of the old "rotary" phones.

[genegold]

Ah, you must be young!!! Guess you don't remember the old "rotary dial" telephones used before "touch tone" phones were invented. Believe it or not, there are still some remote areas where the exchange has never been modernized to accept "touch tone" dialing. To use a modem in those areas you must set them to imitate the "pulse dialing" of the old "rotary" phones.

On the contrary! Don't know why you would have thought that. Are there still locales in the U.S. with pulse only? I haven't seen any reason to use it (except for testing this morning) in what must be approaching 15 years.

[lewmur]

On the contrary! Don't know why you would have thought that. Are there still locales in the U.S. with pulse only? I haven't seen any reason to use it (except for testing this morning) in what must be approaching 15 years.

Probably very few. But that doesn't mean the FCC will relax the requirements for compatibility. And there are phone systems outside of the U.S.

[goretsky]

Hello, It is possible to get Voice Over IP (VoIP) service using a cable broadband connection. VoIP is typically transmitted using standard TCP/IP protocol, which can go over Ethernet, xDSL, Cable, SLIP/PPP and so forth. The medium is not that important, as long as it is robust enough to stream the audio. Typically a 64 kilobit per second connnection is required, assuming no compression is used. In addition to that speed, the connection has to be relatively low in latency, otherwise you might have issues with audio quality.Sending a fax (or using a modem) over a VoIP phone line can be problematic because the signal gets distorted during transmission due to data compression and echo cancellation. This can be resolved if the VoIP line supports the T.38 standard for sending faxes over a network, but VoIP providers typically charge a premium for enabling this as it increases their costs. What you might want to do is verify fax capability is working for both inbound and outbound transmissions. That way you will know for certain if there are any issues before you need to use the service for an important document.Regards, Aryeh Goretsky

[genegold]

Hello, It is possible to get Voice Over IP (VoIP) service using a cable broadband connection. VoIP is typically transmitted using standard TCP/IP protocol, which can go over Ethernet, xDSL, Cable, SLIP/PPP and so forth. The medium is not that important, as long as it is robust enough to stream the audio. Typically a 64 kilobit per second connnection is required, assuming no compression is used. In addition to that speed, the connection has to be relatively low in latency, otherwise you might have issues with audio quality.Sending a fax (or using a modem) over a VoIP phone line can be problematic because the signal gets distorted during transmission due to data compression and echo cancellation. This can be resolved if the VoIP line supports the T.38 standard for sending faxes over a network, but VoIP providers typically charge a premium for enabling this as it increases their costs. What you might want to do is verify fax capability is working for both inbound and outbound transmissions. That way you will know for certain if there are any issues before you need to use the service for an important document.

Aryeh, I see you're a moderator. Perhaps VoIP digital cable is prevelant where you are? That's not the case in the upper midwest (Comcast) or Rockies (Bresnan), which do not sell VoIP services. Obviously, one can use their broadband service with a VoIP provider, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that was the case in this thread.

[Tushman]

Aryeh, I see you're a moderator. Perhaps VoIP digital cable is prevelant where you are? That's not the case in the upper midwest (Comcast) or Rockies (Bresnan), which do not sell VoIP services. Obviously, one can use their broadband service with a VoIP provider, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that was the case in this thread.

I'm still surprised you managed to get a RJ11 jack into a DSL modem. Apparently some DSL modems do have a phone jack.And BTW, Genegold - I'm befuddled as ever on what you really have over there. First you stated earlier in the thread it's NOT DSL but then later, you stated it was. So which is it? :wacko:

This is neither VoIP nor DSL, but broadband digital cable

I'd like to know for future reference how successful you were in sending/receiving faxes. Have you sent any test faxes? Edited August 20, 2008 by Tushman

[lewmur]

I'm still surprised you managed to get a RJ11 jack into a DSL modem. Apparently some DSL modems do have a phone jack.And BTW, Genegold - I'm befuddled as ever on what you really have over there. First you stated earlier in the thread it's NOT DSL but then later, you stated it was. So which is it? :wacko: :wacko:I'd like to know for future reference how successful you were in sending/receiving faxes. Have you sent any test faxes?

Many "cable" co.s are now offering "phone" services. While the service is technically "VoIP," to the customer it appears as a plain ole phone connection. All of the old analog phones in the house will still work and so will a fax machine or computer modem. And if he can get a connection on his Internal Computer modem, he can send an receive faxes. As it turns out, the poster had a problem with his Int Mod and mistakenly attributed the problem to his new "cable stuff." With all of the "new stuff" available, is it really any wonder that posters sometimes have difficulty explaining just what "stuff" they have? That's for us to figure out. Edited August 20, 2008 by lewmur

[genegold]

I've always found Scott's forums to be darn weird (sort of like the sponsor . Some very helpful advice combined with some contributors who are, shall we say, reading their own thoughts into what's written. Once I got the internal modem placement issue (probably grounding) settled and the computer to recognize it, I was able to send a fax successfully (I keep fax receive turned off). The connection is from the cable company's digital box to the Line plug of the modem (in parallel with my deskphone). I think the Comcast installer in Mpls gave me bad info last year and got me thinking in the wrong direction. Thanks to those who helped steer me back on course.

Edited August 20, 2008 by genegold

[Tushman]

I've always found Scott's forums to be darn weird (sort of like the sponsor . Some very helpful advice combined with some contributors who are, shall we say, reading their own thoughts into what's written.

Sort of hard to "read into" what's written when the original poster himself is confused and makes a statement saying

This is neither VoIP nor DSL, but broadband digital cable

and then later realizes himself that it is indeed DSL service he's getting. The only assumption I made in the beginning was that you weren't using DSL, but I suppose that was a figment of my imagination when you said it's not DSL service per your quote above.

[genegold]

Sort of hard to "read into" what's written when the original poster himself is confused and makes a statement sayingand then later realizes himself that it is indeed DSL service he's getting. The only assumption I made in the beginning was that you weren't using DSL, but I suppose that was a figment of my imagination when you said it's not DSL service per your quote above.

My gosh, I stated plainly that I have "broadband digital cable" and named my current and previous providers, in case anyone wished to do a quick check before answering. When mentioned, I also stated plainly that I do not have DSL or VoIP. I'm not sure how I could have put it more clearly than that. This leads me to wonder if providers' recent marketing propaganda hasn't created some confusion about the internet connection terminology we use in these discussions. I believe that that the term "broadband cable" was used early on by direct cable providers exclusively (e.g., Time-Warner?, Comcast, AT&T), while DSL providers said they provided, well, DSL, and VoIP providers provided what they called VoIP. Then dial-up ISPs started monkeying with their software a little and offering the new version as an upgrade to "lightening fast high speed internet." Then DSL providers like Qwest realized they too could generate business by confusing everyone, i.e., selling DSL as "high speed internet" and "broadband." Then VoIP providers started talking about "cable VoIP," which if I'm not mistaken is simply another name for the same third party hookup to an existing cable connection they always provided. Now, fiber optic is getting into it too, which in my opinion is a mistake, because "fiber optic" is such a superior service that they would do well to stick with their own label for marketing purposes. In any event, if you look at the various company sites now, it's getting harder and harder to tell which technology(s) they actually provide. For example, take a look at Qwest's site (http://www.qwest.com/) and see if you can figure out what technology their primary type of internet service uses.

[Tushman]

LOL... well you certainly have clarified that right up for us! LOL.It's always amusing to see people who don't know what or how to phrase their question later correct themselves when they've realized their phrasing was entirely off. Listen Genegold, I'm glad you got your 'faxing' problem figured out. I truly am. But when you start throwing out statements in a accusatory manner saying so & so were "reading into the question", I have some objections to that partly because you didn't have the decency to address it to my face but rather in a snide way stating certain people are here to help and but certain people are just here to "read into" things.Well let me 'read ' a couple of things for you buddy. First, when people say "broadband digital cable", for home settings that usually involves DSL or coax cable service. And here you are from the get go telling us that it's not DSL service. Were these words just a figment of my imagination?Genegold:

This is neither VoIP nor DSL, but broadband digital cable

.It's clear to me you don't understand what the term means - otherwise you would have said from the very beginning "I have DSL". Your continual flip-flopping throughout the thread was what was adding to the confusion. If you truly have DSL - why didn't you just say so from the beginning? Again, sounds like to me you were just confused. No harm no foul. But atleast have the maturity to face up to it and say, oops, I made a mistake. But instead it's deny deny deny - I was clear all along. LOL... maybe a certain someone in the White House would like to have you in his administration. Edited August 21, 2008 by Tushman

[goretsky]

Hello,No doubt the services offered vary by locale, but I know that the local cable providers where I am provide VoIP phone service via a variety of methods. It usually involves placing an analog telephone adapter (ATA) somewhere on the customer premises, which is a device with RJ-11 ports for connecting analog telephone handsets and Ethernet ports for connecting to a TCP/IP-based network. The adapters convert the signals from the telephone (on-hook, off-hook, keypad DTMF tones) into SIP signals (the protocol most commonly used by VoIP systems to make telephone calls). Sometimes, the ATA is built into the cable modem (like mine is from my current cable Internet provider), other times, it is a discrete piece of hardware that plugs in between the cable modem and the computer or residential gateway (or is the residential gateway), like those my previous employer made and I supported for two years. There are also third parties that provide VoIP service and equipment such as Packet8 and Vonage for residential use that work with a variety of broadband technologies such as ADSL, Cable, FIOS and fixed point wireless, to name a few.Without knowing the exact types and models of equipment involved, it is hard to say for certain how it has been deployed, but it sounds like your digital set top cable TV box as an ATA built into it for providing residential VoIP service. Perhaps you can find manuals for the devices at the manufacturer's web site to confirm this.Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

[lewmur]

Hello,No doubt the services offered vary by locale, but I know that the local cable providers where I am provide VoIP phone service via a variety of methods. It usually involves placing an analog telephone adapter (ATA) somewhere on the customer premises, which is a device with RJ-11 ports for connecting analog telephone handsets and Ethernet ports for connecting to a TCP/IP-based network. The adapters convert the signals from the telephone (on-hook, off-hook, keypad DTMF tones) into SIP signals (the protocol most commonly used by VoIP systems to make telephone calls). Sometimes, the ATA is built into the cable modem (like mine is from my current cable Internet provider), other times, it is a discrete piece of hardware that plugs in between the cable modem and the computer or residential gateway (or is the residential gateway), like those my previous employer made and I supported for two years. There are also third parties that provide VoIP service and equipment such as Packet8 and Vonage for residential use that work with a variety of broadband technologies such as ADSL, Cable, FIOS and fixed point wireless, to name a few.Without knowing the exact types and models of equipment involved, it is hard to say for certain how it has been deployed, but it sounds like your digital set top cable TV box as an ATA built into it for providing residential VoIP service. Perhaps you can find manuals for the devices at the manufacturer's web site to confirm this.Regards,Aryeh Goretsky

Why should he go to that trouble when he has already solved the problem by fixing his computer's modem?

[lewmur]

It's clear to me you don't understand what the term means - otherwise you would have said from the very beginning "I have DSL". Your continual flip-flopping throughout the thread was what was adding to the confusion. If you truly have DSL - why didn't you just say so from the beginning? Again, sounds like to me you were just confused. No harm no foul. But atleast have the maturity to face up to it and say, oops, I made a mistake. But instead it's deny deny deny - I was clear all along. LOL... maybe a certain someone in the White House would like to have you in his administration.So what if he doesn't understand the terms? Since when is that a criteria for asking for help? Let's face it. It is those who DON'T understand the terms that are most in need of help.

[genegold]

One of you claims I have DSL, while the other says VoIP. Are they now the same? I'm not interested in a pissing contest, so if there's something to learn, that's fine.Here's the problem as a user (and problem communicator) I face: Bresnan and Comcast are widely known as broadband cable providers. Specifically, Comcast calls their phone service, "Comcast Digital Voice," while Bresnan calls theirs, "Bresnan Digital Phone." So that and the generally used terminology in marketing, popular review articles and everyday discussion is where my use of "broadband digital cable" comes from. My understanding is that DSL is (or was) a different technology, where the issue of how close one's location is to the phone company's central office determines the quality of service. That's something that hasn't been an issue with the broadband cable companies, such as Comcast or Bresnan. Moreover, typical DSL service has been much slower than 'broadband cable.' For instance, TV ads for Qwest have presented its DSL service as providing the same "high speed internet" as Comcast's, tho their standard transfer rates have been vastly different. As a reference, I also refer you back to Scot's Newsletters themselves, where over the years in his search for good internet connections he repeatedly discussed the differences between DSL and broadband cable (and other) technologies and his experiences with them. Perhaps these technologies have changed or even converged to some extent, but I find that though "digital" is part of DSL, you won't find the term on Qwest's site or in its ads at all (some or all of their modems are DSL). Aryeh asks about VoIP. Just for clarity, I didn't mention a TV top digital box because it's not relevant. The TV box can be unplugged and only the number of cable channels changes. Bresnan's and Comcast's phone and internet (and basic cable TV?) services currently provide a separate "cable modem" installed close to the computer. Mine is an Arris TM502G/CT. Arris' site says the TM502G is used for VoIP and high-speed data access (checking on the CT). In terms of audio quality, my phone quality is far superior to the third-party VoIP phone services I'm familiar with. Maybe that's the source of the confusion; I was not aware that cable companies were using VoIP technology, mainly because they (Bresnan, Comcast) aren't saying anything about it on their sites or in their instructional literature. From a practical point, does it make a difference?

Edited August 21, 2008 by genegold

[genegold]

if you indeed do use voip, you have either a special phone you recently received from branson or someone or you are using a microphone / headset / maybe webcam plugged into your pc somehow.at some point, you get pots. your home phones work, yes?(the same ones you've always had...)therefore, regardless of what's on the other side of the "dsl modem" box,you have pots in several places at home.therefore, you can use an analog 56k modem.or a 14.4k fax-modem (located contentedly inside your happy fax machine.)each phone plugs into a filterthat keeps the dsl signal happy.on the filtered side is your pots phone.or, should you desire, your 14.4 fax or 56k pc modem.

No special phone or webcam, etc., just a regular old pulse/touchtone phone from the mid 1990s and a Motorola SM56 internal modem. Still not sure where the "DSL modem" comes from (this is not Qwest). Here's what Bresnan Communications, the provider, had to say: "Bresnan uses the VOIP protocol to send the phone signal through our coaxial/fiber lines. We do not send it through the internet connection and do not use the internet for this service. We just use the same protocol to be able to send the signal through our system."