Many Linux snobs push the Arch operating system as the greatest thing

[securitybreach]

Maybe Arch should consider making their distro a lot easier to install. Perhaps they should keep the following excerpt from the story in mind.

 

while Arch is a fine OS (stable and fast), it can be very hard to install and set up, and quite frankly, often not worth the hassle. People have lives to live, and sometimes it is easy to forget that an operating system and associated computer are tools -- not a religion.

 

Mel

 

They did have one similar to the ncurses one that Debian offers but no one thought it worth maintaining so the installer was dropped. There are plenty of graphical installers out there if you need them but there is no reason for them on Archlinux when you can easily install it with pacstrap and then install the packages you like.

 

Even back when there was an installer, you still had to set up your environments and such. All it did was guide you through partitioning, bootloader and such.

[securitybreach]

For an experienced user (you do NOT have to be a geek) Arch is not that hard to install. Seriously. It's like driving a stick shift instead of an automatic. You are not building the car.

You might have to know what fstab, chroot, mount are and execute a few commands in the terminal. The Arch Wiki is unmatched for useful documentation.

Once you get Arch installed you are in business and just use pacman to keep it up to date.

 

Exactly

[securitybreach]

"The fact remains though, that Manjaro is ranked Number 3 on Distrowatch for the last 6 months. They must be doing something right."

 

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

 

I had a look at the " about " pages of both distros. There are some differences in how and what they are describing.

 

https://www.archlinux.org/about/

 

https://manjaro.org/about/

 

Can you see the difference ?

 

 

And that is why DistroWatch is not a good indication of usage. It is a nice place to learn about new distros but their top 10 means little really.

 

Reminds me of a commercial from years ago (decades ago!) -- might ring a bell to some of you -- I think they had a guy playing an auto mechanic, saying something like, "You can pay me now, or pay me later..." And that's how I feel about Arch and its derivatives: Go with one of the derivatives and save yourself some time and effort now; go with Arch and save yourself even more time and effort later.

 

Edit:

 

pay me now, or pay me later

 

It was from that old Fram Oil Filter commercial! I just saw it on YouTube! Lol. Early 70s.

 

Very true in my case too

[securitybreach]

I'm interested in Arch AND Manjaro, for similar but slightly different reasons. I like 'em both, and continue to "Beta test" both in VMs. And if the criteria was 100% based on the distro, I'd be leaning to Arch. But for me at least, a big part of a distro's appeal is the community of users around it. And Arch's Wiki is beyond compare...as a long-term Ubuntu user I have often consulted the Arch Wiki for "how to" of linux configuration. But there have been instances where, after having RTFM and still not having a grasp, moving on to the Arch forums was an eye-opening disappointment of the arrogance and elitism that I haven't really seen anywhere else except Apple fanbois. Bluntly, it throws a wet blanket on my Arch interests.....doesn't quash it, but it certainly affects it. Arch doesn't seem to want to cultivate/develop new users, it seems to want to pickoff users that were developed elsewhere. At least that is my perception.

 

We have some WONDERFUL Arch users and ambassadors on this forum, but in my experience, they have been the exception, not the rule. I wish those folks were in charge of the Arch community. Leadership and culture comes from the top down. I'd say THAT is probably the main reason this forum is as awesome as I think it is. And it's probably the reason the Arch forum is perceived the way it is perceived...and that's a problem, IMO. But it's a problem that no one in charge of that forum seems interested in addressing.

 

I think Ray asked the question above, and I think that maybe I would be willing to describe Ubuntu or Mint as "Debian without the aggravation"...but I would be referring to the distro philosophy regarding proprietary/trademarked software offerings. If I referred to Manjaro as "Arch without the aggravation" I'd be referring to the user communities, not necessarily the software (users here on BATL excepted, of course!). Manjaro is of interest to me because it provides something I'm very interested in (the Arch ecosystem), and addresses the single largest issue I have with that (the seemingly elitist and exclusive attitude). IMO, that is Manjaro's whole reason for existence...folks like me who are interested in the Arch ecosystem but are turned off by the seemingly overriding attitude of that user base. And judging by Manjaro's meteoric rise up the distro charts, I'd say they're doing something right...Manjaro is to Arch as Ubuntu is to Debian, IMO.

 

Hope I didn't offend any Arch users here, as I think the distro is excellent (so far) and the folks here are wonderful (so far?!). JMO... As a long-term Ubuntu user, I'll happily discuss Ubuntu's shortcomings, and likely agree with many of them, FWIW!

 

Well that is what most people do not understand, Archlinux was built for developers by developers. A completely DIY setup of your creation using binaries. Arch was never really geared towards the beginner user. Archlinux has as always been geared towards the more intermediate user:

 

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

 

All users are encouraged to participate and contribute to the distribution. Reporting and helping fix bugs is highly valued and patches improving packages or the core projects are very appreciated: Arch's developers are volunteers and active contributors will often find themselves becoming part of that team. Archers can freely contribute packages to the Arch User Repository, improve the ArchWiki documentation, provide technical assistance to others or just exchange opinions in the forums, mailing lists, or IRC channels. Arch Linux is the operating system of choice for many people around the globe, and there exist several international communities that offer help and provide documentation in many different languages...

https://wiki.archlin...User_centrality

 

While I am not excusing the attitude of those on forums, I do understand how they could be annoyed by people asking the same questions that have been answered already on the wiki or on the forums. A large majority of the posts on the Arch forums have already been solved either in the wiki or on another forum post. Based on my experience in the Arch forums, I started the G+ Arch Community with a clear set of rules to keep things on topic and civil. There have been times where people have been rude to others asking for help but as long as you are trying to use Archlinux (not a derivative but vanilla repo installers are fine), we always make sure that it is a welcoming and supportive place. It has gotten to the point now where I rarely even have to step in at all.

[securitybreach]

Josh is awesome. He and I both started experimenting with Arch about the same time... with a lot of help from our old forum mate, Steel (Louis). Josh really took the ball and ran with it, though. I just experimented and moved on. Josh has become an Arch guru in the last 8 years or so.

 

Hehe, thanks.

 

Not really, I am just good at searching

 

That was Bruno's doing, mostly. He had no tolerance for rectal orifices.

 

Exactly!! He set an example for us all.

 

The way I look at it, no sense banging your head against a wall just because people at certain Linux forums don't behave the way you think they should behave, or because you don't like their forum rules. The distro can be great and useful even if its forums aren't what you'd like them to be. Just post your questions at BATL or someplace else, problem solved.

 

Agreed

[securitybreach]

I quite agree. I recon the best way to cope with folk who refuse to read and follow guidelines would be for forum members to have a sticky they could post in answer to any off forum matters. Something simple like,

 

"These forums are for Arch Linux ONLY. Not Antegros, or Apricity, or Manjaro or anything other than vanilla Arch Linux. Ask those communities for support.

Feel free to search the Arch Wiki for information that may help you."

 

If that were posted with no other comments it would make life easier for everyone at the forums and give a simple polite message to the offender. An just keep giving the message till the person went away. If they persisted then ban them if possible.

 

That's basically what I do on my G+ Community. An old friend of mine, Alex, and I came up with a clear set of rules that are enforced without exceptions. Alex is not around very much anymore so I keep up the Community now. I try to be nice when a rule broken and post the rule along with why their post was removed. Most people understand these and follow the rules. Only one of the rules is about derivatives but most are there to help keep everything strictly on topic: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlexanderDiana/posts/PfyGnQwPJ9z

 

That alone has kept my Community on topic unlike most every distro's community on G+. Some of them are a complete off topic mess with tons of spam and such as well. I will not name any names but do a search for one of the most popular distros and look at their communities. It is a mess that doesn't help any one at all.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Not really, I am just good at searching

 

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it.

[securitybreach]

Not really, I am just good at searching

 

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it.

 

Very true

[saturnian]

Intelligence isn't how much knowledge you have stored in your brain. It's your brain's ability to utilize tools and sources to find that knowledge when you need it.

 

Reminds me of years ago when my dad wrote, in a letter to me, "You're smarter than I am, but I'm wiser."

 

Ha-ha -- he was wrong, though. I wasn't (and still am not) smarter than my dad!

[raymac46]

Having played "Castles of Dr, Creep" with my 8 year old grandson I feel neither smart or wise. He has an uncanny sense of the flow of the game and his spatial concept of the rooms in the castle and how they interact is unbelievable.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

One of my father's favorite adages was, "The older you get, the smarter I get."

[abarbarian]

My dads favourite saying if I complained about helping out was " If you don't work you don't eat". Meaning life in general not that he was not going to give me me tea.

[mhbell]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

[abarbarian]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

 

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly.

[saturnian]

I don't think I've bothered to look at Arch's page at DistroWatch in all the time since I started running Arch. Quite simply, I've had no reason to do so. But I've looked at LOTS of other distros' pages there -- most of which I've never even installed!

 

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

[mhbell]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

 

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly.

As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners. Edited July 8, 2017 by mhbell

[mhbell]

I don't think I've bothered to look at Arch's page at DistroWatch in all the time since I started running Arch. Quite simply, I've had no reason to do so. But I've looked at LOTS of other distros' pages there -- most of which I've never even installed!

 

The DistroWatch Page Hit Ranking statistics are a light-hearted way of measuring the popularity of Linux distributions and other free operating systems among the visitors of this website. They correlate neither to usage nor to quality and should not be used to measure the market share of distributions. They simply show the number of times a distribution page on DistroWatch.com was accessed each day, nothing more.

I stand corrected thanks for the heads up.

Mel

[saturnian]

Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

 

True.

 

If it were possible to really determine distro popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if Arch turned out to be a lot lower than #17.

Edited July 9, 2017 by saturnian

[saturnian]

Something else I find interesting is that even though Linux Mint has been at #1 in the DW page hit rankings for quite some time, it always seemed to me that the Ubuntu forums were always much more active than the Mint forums. (That could be for a lot of different reasons, of course.) Also, the Arch forums seem surprisingly active... Not saying that forum activity really tells you anything about a distro's popularity, but perhaps it's at least as good of an indicator as DW's page hit rankings are. Or perhaps not -- who knows?

[sunrat]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

Arch is dead! Long live Debian!

 

As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why.

You realise that means exactly the opposite of what you meant it to mean? "could care less" means you care a significant amount. Don't worry, I've seen it written a lot lately.

[mhbell]

 

As far as Arch goes, I could Don't care less who uses it or why.

You realise that means exactly the opposite of what you meant it to mean? "could care less" means you care a significant amount. Don't worry, I've seen it written a lot lately.

There is that better. LoL!

[abarbarian]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

 

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly.

As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

 

"I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners."

 

Well I never ever said anything like that not here or anywhere else.

[securitybreach]

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire. I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

 

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly.

As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

 

"I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners."

 

Well I never ever said anything like that not here or anywhere else.

 

I said that because of this quote from the Archwiki:

 

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

https://wiki.archlin...User_centrality

[securitybreach]

Granted I started using Archlinux when I was still a beginner and try to help anyone that asks but there is a reason that Archlinux is not geared towards new users

[raymac46]

Let's suppose for an instant you want to set up Linux on an older laptop. You are a new user but tech savvy enough to download an ISO and make a bootable DVD or USB drive and get your PC to boot it. What next?

• MX-Linux - the ISO boots & wifi is available. You install and connect to the Internet.
  
• Ubuntu and Mint - maybe wifi won't work. You plug in a wire and use the Driver Manager to get the wifi going after an install.
  
• Debian - wifi won't work till you identify your chipset, get the right firmware installed. Maybe an Atheros chipset will work but don't count on it.
  
• Arch - wifi might work but it's a lot easier with a wire. Install the basic system and configure it manually. Get the packages for a GUI, browser, whatever you need. Maybe you'll configure wifi via the command line or use a GUI like Network Manager.You'll need to be familiar with the details an installer script will do in other distros, plus a basic appreciation of how systemd works. Refer to the Arch Wiki for details.
  

So which distros are for new users, and which for advanced users?

[saturnian]

First thought that came to my mind: What if you're a "new user" who doesn't necessarily want/need to use wifi? There are still some of us out there (yes, even here in the year 2017!) who don't.

 

But, I guess that's besides the point...

[securitybreach]

Let's suppose for an instant you want to set up Linux on an older laptop. You are a new user but tech savvy enough to download an ISO and make a bootable DVD or USB drive and get your PC to boot it. What next?

• MX-Linux - the ISO boots & wifi is available. You install and connect to the Internet.
  
• Ubuntu and Mint - maybe wifi won't work. You plug in a wire and use the Driver Manager to get the wifi going after an install.
  
• Debian - wifi won't work till you identify your chipset, get the right firmware installed. Maybe an Atheros chipset will work but don't count on it.
  
• Arch - wifi might work but it's a lot easier with a wire. Install the basic system and configure it manually. Get the packages for a GUI, browser, whatever you need. Maybe you'll configure wifi via the command line or use a GUI like Network Manager.You'll need to be familiar with the details an installer script will do in other distros, plus a basic appreciation of how systemd works. Refer to the Arch Wiki for details.
  

So which distros are for new users, and which for advanced users?

 

 

Well I guess it would also depend on how much you like to customize your distro. If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff. And I do not mean being able to change the default DE/WM

[saturnian]

If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff.

 

Yeah. I really like Ubuntu LTS, for example, but total setup time seems comparable to Debian Stable when I take into account all the time I spend with Ubuntu removing stuff and turning stuff off, etc.

 

MX is another great one, but I can install Debian Stable w/ Xfce, without all the extras that MX throws in there, and I can have it all done like maybe 6 months before MX releases its next Stable-based version.

 

Maybe not great options for someone new to Linux, but users don't remain "new to Linux" forever...

[securitybreach]

If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff.

 

Yeah. I really like Ubuntu LTS, for example, but total setup time seems comparable to Debian Stable when I take into account all the time I spend with Ubuntu removing stuff and turning stuff off, etc.

 

MX is another great one, but I can install Debian Stable w/ Xfce, without all the extras that MX throws in there, and I can have it all done like maybe 6 months before MX releases its next Stable-based version.

 

Maybe not great options for someone new to Linux, but users don't remain "new to Linux" forever...

 

Agreed

[raymac46]

First thought that came to my mind: What if you're a "new user" who doesn't necessarily want/need to use wifi? There are still some of us out there (yes, even here in the year 2017!) who don't.

 

But, I guess that's besides the point...

Well in that case you are in luck - just about anything you want is going to work for you. But you are in the minority. I have desktops in my basement that I use wifi with to avoid a lot of cabling. Only one out of my units is wired in permanently.