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#26 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 May 2016 - 10:39 PM

View PostHedon James, on 09 May 2016 - 10:36 PM, said:

Only problem is, I'm not sure I could duplicate my work a 2nd time!  LOL!  Arch and pacman is just a foreign language for me...I could probably do this in Debian/Ubuntu in no time!  But I'm learning, so it's all good!

Honestly I know apt-get inside and out but I still prefer pacman as the syntax makes more sense to me than apt does.
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#27 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:00 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 09 May 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

Honestly I know apt-get inside and out but I still prefer pacman as the syntax makes more sense to me than apt does.

Not to me!  At least not yet...I feel like a chimp with a swiss army knife, randomly pulling blades to see if it fits somewhere?!  LOL!

In all fairness, I'm using an Arch-based derivative for the first time, learning about Arch idiosyncracies and conventions (this is the most time I've spent on ANY distro that wasn't Debian/Ubuntu based!); I'm using Fluxbox for the first time EVER, learning about features I didn't know existed and then customizing the interface to my liking; and learning to use pacman to do it ALL.

Pacman is just frustrating the heck out of me because I'm using that the most and I don't have it down yet.  Back to my Debian analogy, if something isn't in the Software Center as a ready-made package/tool, I can use apt-get to search the repos for it; if I still can't find it (due to spelling error or such), I can check synaptic and see if the tool/package is in there; if it still isn't available, I can look for a PPA and add it, or find a DEB package and use gDebi to install.  In Archbang, I can only look for a package with pacman, or pacman with flags, or search the website for applications to install with pacman.

For instance, the package "skippy-xd" really kicked my butt yesterday!  Wasn't in the pacman repo, no matter how I spelled it; wasn't in the online website no matter how I spelled it.  Eventually did a google search for Arch and skippy-xd that lead me to the AUR package skippy-xd-git.  This lead me down the rabbit hole of the CLI tool "mkpkg" with the "-s" flag.  Thought I had it licked...the Arch equivalent of make, install, make install....but NO!  Turns out I only built the package, but hadn't installed it.  Back to pacman for the install, where I finally figured out that the -U flag can be used for installation of local packages, as well as "upgrades" of packages.  And that package better have a "*.pkg.tar.gz" or similar extension after the "*.pkg.*" indicator!  (Don't ask me how I know that, as I could write a small comedy short on that one!)  But I assure you I will be a LOT more diligent in checking, double-checking, and cross-checking filenames in the future with pacman!!!  Long story short...I got skippy-xd-git installed; it's working fine; and it's invoked with a keyboard binding.  So all is well, other than a 5-minute task on Ubuntu took me many HOURS on Arch (I don't know how many, I lost track...a LOT!).

But I'm still with it, I haven't chucked my machine through a window, and I still have most of my hair!  Looking to keep the frustration factor to a lower level in the future, a couple questions regarding the use of pacman:

1.  is there a "fuzzy" search for pacman?  i could not find "skippy", nor "skippy-xd", nor "*skippy*" in searches using "pacman -Ss", nor on the website.  But after locating "skippy-xd-git" with google, I was able to locate the package in AUR on website (still not available with pacman, but perhaps that makes sense if it wasn't in main repo) using the EXACT package spelling.  is there a fuzzy search to find packages that appear to be close to what I'm spelling?

2.  would this process have been easier with Yaourt (previously mentioned by Dr. J)?  If so, what might the Yaourt installation process looked like?

3.  If not Yaourt, perhaps another alternative to pacman?  The pacman wiki lists numerous alternatives/derivatives of pacman.  Would another tool have been a better choice for this use case?

3.  speaking of alternative tools, I'm familiar with Octopi as a graphical tool.  Is Octopi like a software center, or more like a synaptic?

#28 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:32 AM

Pacman only searches for packages in the actual archlinux repos. The AUR (Arch User Repo) packages are user submitted, meaning that they are not official packages and cannot be installed by pacman without doing it the manual way using makepkg and pacman -U.

You have two choices, you can do it the manual way like you did with that package or use one of the AUR frontends. A lot of people prefer yaourt but I like pacaur.

Anyway once you have a frontend setup, you can search and install packages from the arch repos and from the aur. The syntax is the same with the frontends as it is with pacman but you can now install packages from the AUR as well.

For example, you could of just did this to find the package in the AUR (or arch repos):

 comhack@Pluto ~ % pacaur -Ss skippy
aur/skippy-xd-git 0-1 (31, 0.99)
A full-screen task-switcher for X11, similar to Apple's Expose.

As far as a 'software center', Octopi is a popular one but I have never used it before and since its not an official application, I do not know how stable it is.
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#29 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 11:37 AM

Once packages from the AUR get enough votes, they are usually added to the Community repo and then they can be installed with just pacman. This will better explain what the aur is:  https://wiki.archlin...User_Repository
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#30 OFFLINE   Dr. J

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:41 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 10 May 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

As far as a 'software center', Octopi is a popular one but I have never used it before and since its not an official application, I do not know how stable it is.
I used octopi for a while, but only briefly... Someting updated (probably GTK) and I lost my progress bar, so I fell back to yaourt.

Edited by Dr. J, 10 May 2016 - 12:41 PM.

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#31 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:46 PM

Interesting stuff about pacman, Yaourt & pacaur, but raises more questions from me.  Since yaourt & pacaur do everything that pacman does, with same user flags, why not just use one of those instead of pacman?  Is it a matter of "purity" of Arch...installation of "curated for Arch" apps?

And what do you like about pacaur that made you choose it over yaourt?  Was it a practical usage consideration, or simply user preference?  And if user preference, how did pacaur get the nod, given that both are CLI tools (so I know it wasn't because of a more attractive GUI!)  LOL!

I'll install Octopi and see what that's all about.  I'm looking for an Arch software center GUI.  If I'm exploring a switch from Ubuntu to Arch based distro, I'm thinking of other users that I provide Linux instruction and support to.  The lack of a software center would be a deal killer for some (MOST!) of those users.  Then again, sometimes I want to thin the herd of those who receive support.  They're just not getting it.  Or maybe it's me...  I'm trying to teach folks how to fish, but some of them only want to eat fish that someone else caught.

Maybe switching to an Arch distro would send 'em running back to Windows.  Then again, some already use Windows and STILL call me with computer issues even thought I've repeatedly stated "I don't know Windows anymore, and I don't have time to learn it...call GeekSquad."  They still ask...

#32 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 01:02 PM

View PostHedon James, on 10 May 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Interesting stuff about pacman, Yaourt & pacaur, but raises more questions from me.  Since yaourt & pacaur do everything that pacman does, with same user flags, why not just use one of those instead of pacman?  Is it a matter of "purity" of Arch...installation of "curated for Arch" apps?

And what do you like about pacaur that made you choose it over yaourt?  Was it a practical usage consideration, or simply user preference?  And if user preference, how did pacaur get the nod, given that both are CLI tools (so I know it wasn't because of a more attractive GUI!)  LOL!

Some people use the AUR helpers only for AUR packages but most do like I do and use whatever frontend they like to do all of the package management. They are just frontends to pacman and makepkg anyway so the same thing is going on in the background

AS far as pacaur versus yaourt, it was kind of an evolution for me. First I did things the manual way and then yaourt came out and automated things. Then packer came out to fix quirks about yaourt that people didn't like and then I moved to pacaur as it prompts you less than yaourt but still does the same thing. Plus I find it much faster than yaourt. This happen over the last 9 years of using Archlinux.

View PostHedon James, on 10 May 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

I'll install Octopi and see what that's all about.  I'm looking for an Arch software center GUI.  If I'm exploring a switch from Ubuntu to Arch based distro, I'm thinking of other users that I provide Linux instruction and support to.  The lack of a software center would be a deal killer for some (MOST!) of those users.  Then again, sometimes I want to thin the herd of those who receive support.  They're just not getting it.  Or maybe it's me...  I'm trying to teach folks how to fish, but some of them only want to eat fish that someone else caught.

Maybe switching to an Arch distro would send 'em running back to Windows.  Then again, some already use Windows and STILL call me with computer issues even thought I've repeatedly stated "I don't know Windows anymore, and I don't have time to learn it...call GeekSquad."  They still ask...

Well Archlinux has never been geared towards the beginners anyway. Arch Linux is geared towards intermediate Linux users who like full control of their distro. These should summarize the Arch Way:

Quote

Arch Linux defines simplicity as without unnecessary additions or modifications. It ships software as released by the original developers (upstream) with minimal distribution-specific (downstream) changes: patches not accepted by upstream are avoided, and Arch's downstream patches consist almost entirely of backported bug fixes that are obsoleted by the project's next release.

In a similar fashion, Arch ships the configuration files provided by upstream with changes limited to distribution-specific issues like adjusting the system file paths. It does not add automation features such as enabling a service simply because the package was installed. Packages are only split when compelling advantages exist, such as to save disk space in particularly bad cases of waste. GUI configuration utilities are not officially provided, encouraging to perform most system configuration from the shell and a text editor......

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

https://wiki.archlin....php/Arch_Linux
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#33 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 03:48 PM

I did get yaourt installed by adding a PPA (didn't know THAT was possible with Arch!) and used yaourt to attempt an octopi installation, which failed.  Not sure why...I'd have to read up on that...perhaps the PKGBUILD needs to be reconfigured for my installation?  No biggie though, I found tkpacman and installed that instead.  Both seem to be Arch's version of Synaptic.  Cool...a LITTLE bit of familiarity.

And I found a gnome-software in the repos.  Looks like that could work, except the gnome theme overrides the Flux theme...not cool...and it shows applications installed that are NOT installed...a deal breaker.  I understand the Arch philosophy, and I knew what it was when I started this...and I fully intended on pushing the envelope.  While I'm doing this for MY interests, I'm also cognizant of the interests of those I provide tech support and instruction to.  And maybe I just can't hammer Arch into a configuration that suits both MY wants/needs, as well as those less technical users who look to me.  But that isn't going to stop me from seeing what I can do with it!!!  :pirate:

Best case scenario...I can get an Arch distro into a form that is a viable alternative for me AND those who rely on me.  Worst case scenario...I'll stick with the Debian/Ubuntu family, but armed with some new ideas gleaned from my Arch/Archbang/Flux experience!  In the words of Austin Powers..."Yeah, baby"!   :D

#34 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 05:09 PM

There is no such thing as a PPA on Archlinux, those are simply precompiled binaries like you get when you install a package from pacman. The only ones built from source per se (thats not really what they are doing) are the ones from AUR. The rest are simple binaries. You just used a custom repo to fetch a precompiled  version of yaourt.

See:

Quote

Personal Package Archives (PPA) allow you to upload Ubuntu source packages to be built and published as an apt repository by Launchpad.

https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas
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#35 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 05:12 PM

View PostHedon James, on 10 May 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

Best case scenario...I can get an Arch distro into a form that is a viable alternative for me AND those who rely on me.  Worst case scenario...I'll stick with the Debian/Ubuntu family, but armed with some new ideas gleaned from my Arch/Archbang/Flux experience!  In the words of Austin Powers..."Yeah, baby"!   :D

If that's what you want to do, then your in luck... Archiso is an easy tool to build  custom Arch distros:

Quote

Archiso is a small set of bash scripts capable of building fully functional Arch Linux live CD/DVD/USB images. It is the same tool used to generate the official images, but since it is a very generic tool, it can be used to generate anything from rescue systems, install disks, to special interest live CD/DVD/USB systems, and who knows what else. Simply put, if it involves Arch on a shiny coaster, it can do it.

https://wiki.archlin...dex.php/archiso
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#36 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 07:26 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 10 May 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

There is no such thing as a PPA on Archlinux, those are simply precompiled binaries like you get when you install a package from pacman. The only ones built from source per se (thats not really what they are doing) are the ones from AUR. The rest are simple binaries. You just used a custom repo to fetch a precompiled  version of yaourt.

See:

Quote

Personal Package Archives (PPA) allow you to upload Ubuntu source packages to be built and published as an apt repository by Launchpad.

https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+ppas

Yep, this is what I did to get Yaourt:

http://revryl.com/20...ion-arch-linux/

In my Debian-soaked brain, I equated this with PPA.  Custom repo=Personal Package Archive.  Just like my comments regarding a chimp with a swiss army knife, I'm also still learning the lingo!

And truth be told, I don't know WHAT I want SB.  I like the user-friendliness of the 'Buntus, and the larger user-base for troubleshooting, but getting tired of the bloated resource requirements of Unity and the mythical "convergence" being talked about since Ubuntu 11.04.  I can solve the Unity issue with LXDE panels & customizations in Lubuntu, but Lubuntu is a 3-year LTS instead of 5-year like Ubuntu.  So I might be looking at an Ubuntu mini- or server- base distro with LXDE and Fluxbox or Openbox to get the 5-year window.  But if I'm going to all that trouble, what I'd REALLY like is a rolling release philosophy.  And Arch is the cadillac of rolling release, IMO; but not sure I want to sacrifice my other wants/needs simply to acquire rolling release.  That's just squeezing the bubble back and forth...  I don't think there's a "perfect" distro for me, so I'm going to have to make concessions and compromises to get MY "best fit".  And I need the hands-on pros & cons in order to get the whole picture, IMO.

For instance, I'd heard of Fluxbox ages ago, and was aware of it, but was convinced that was for hardcore users and programmers, etc...  But recent experiences customizing Openbox lead me to Fluxbox and I threw it on a mini-server just to tinker with it and I'm just in awe.  Last week, the verdict was "not for me...no way", but this week I'm thinking "this could change my workflow for the better and be EXACTLY what I'm looking for."  I never would've gotten to that place if I hadn't just rolled up the sleeves and gotten dirty playing with it.

And so it is with Arch...I don't know that it's my answer, but I'm sure gonna run it down and I'm gonna know more than I do today!  I can live with that!

#37 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 08:44 PM

I think what you most desire is full control to mold your system to your exact specifications and to be able to create a custom setup for anyone to use. Honestly, Archlinux is what you want as you can easily create a respin and you have full control over what is added to a blank slate versus removing things from a prebuilt environment.
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#38 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:00 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 10 May 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

I think what you most desire is full control to mold your system to your exact specifications and to be able to create a custom setup for anyone to use. Honestly, Archlinux is what you want as you can easily create a respin and you have full control over what is added to a blank slate versus removing things from a prebuilt environment.

If it was for ME, and ONLY ME, you'd have just nailed the bulls-eye.  But I'm thinking of my "other users" that I support, and for that reason I'm compelled to build a pretty versatile distro that is MOST things to MOST people.  It may still be Arch, but I've got to find a way to get around the terminal for software installs.  They're afraid of it and, truth be told, I don't want to support that, troubleshoot that, or deal with any issues that they create from a terminal.  I'm certain they prefer a software center, and I would prefer to narrow the troubleshooting vector by limiting their options to mess something up; software center only seems like a win-win if I can figure it out.  No rush...but I'm always looking forward.

You've been a tremendous resource so far, and I appreciate that.  So thank you!  And thank you in advance for answering all the questions that I haven't asked yet!  LOL!

#39 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 May 2016 - 10:34 PM

Hehehe, no problem. I enjoy helping others with Linux as Bruno helped me along my path. It's all about giving back. Lots of archlinux derivatives use Octopi so it should work just fine even if it goes against the Arch Way.
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#40 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 10:44 AM

Hey Saturn, this is for you buddy...thanks to some ideas you provided, I have tweaked Fluxbox into a configuration that works well for me!  Screenshot below, showing an lxpanel with launchers (Unity like), a tint2 panel with workspaces that hides (to replace hot corner/edges), skippy-xd spread (not shown), themed in Ambiance Blue to sorta resemble familiar old 'Buntu, tabbed terminals, a custom Fluxmenu that makes sense to me (and autoupdates with new software installations!), and some compton transparencies to help emphasize inactive windows (active windows are opaque), and blue drop shadows just cuz they look cool!.

Even with all that, still responsive and nimble as heck in a VM, hovering around 135MB RAM in its default state from boot!!!  I've still got some pieces/programs to assemble, and some mods and tweaks to make, but this broad brush setup would work for me now!  Thanks for the inspiration Saturn!

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Edited by Hedon James, 12 May 2016 - 10:08 AM.


#41 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 11 May 2016 - 11:12 AM

Looks nice :thumbsup:
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#42 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 13 May 2016 - 12:26 PM

Excellent set-up, Hedon James! I really like what you've done with the panels.

I'm still using packer instead of yaourt, pacaur, etc. Seems to work out fine. I've only got a couple of things from AUR, though.

I prefer Synaptic over any other package management GUI I've used, but pacman in Arch is easier for me than going to the command line in Debian and using apt-get, etc. And I've been running Debian for much longer than I've been using Arch.

#43 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 12:42 PM

Still tinkering with Fluxbox, and still quite enamored.  I think I'm going to include an Xsession option in my next remix that I've been working on.  I've been hammering on Lubuntu Betas in my spare time for months now, and just waiting for a few spare moments to intersect with point release 16.04.1.  LXDE and Openbox is a winning combination for functionality and lightweight, IMO, and was perfect for my vision...until Fluxbox came along.  While Openbox is more "user-friendly" to the casual users that I provide support to; Fluxbox "fixes" nearly every issue that I had learned to "deal with" in Openbox.  So I prefer Flux now, but Openbox needs to remain in place as an option for nearly everyone else.  Fortunately, it is SO easy to create "LXDE skins" for aesthetics, and just have one of the 'Boxen invoke the LXDE skin for desktop appearance/paradigm.  But I've digressed...

About the only thing I don't care for in either 'Boxen is the "default" window button decorations.  Not a huge deal, as I can "over-ride" the defaults with user-specified button decorations, but this is Linux and I'd like to change the defaults.  Unfortunately, after too much wasted time web surfing & googling, I can't seem to locate the "default" location of the default window buttons.  Of course, Openbox insists these buttons are *.xbm bitmaps, while Fluxbox insists they are *.xpm pixmaps.  But I cannot seem to locate them anywhere on the system.  Anyone know where to look for these graphical files?  Or should I just stick with the tried & true method of over-riding the defaults with my preferred button decorations?

#44 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 07 June 2016 - 08:45 PM

Update:  I found the default Openbox window button xbm folder at /usr/share/doc/openbox/xbm, and sure enough, the default xbm files are there!  So I CAN change the default window button decorations for Openbox!  But I still can't find the folder for Fluxbox xpm pixmaps.  STUMPED!  Anyone know where the Fluxbox default xpms are stored?

#45 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 02:34 PM

Try: /usr/share/pixmaps/
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#46 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 06:00 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 08 June 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Try: /usr/share/pixmaps/

Thanks SB, but not there.  I've never had such a difficult time tracking down a file/folder.  "Classic" fluxbox styles that almost always come as default with a  Fluxbox installation seem to never have a Pixmap or Wallpaper folder with the style; just a theme.cfg file only. I'm starting to think it's "baked in" to the window manager code itself.  But I wish I could confirm or refute that.

#47 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 06:19 PM

Have you tried in the config directory for fluxbox? Maybe ~/.fluxbox or ~/.config/fluxbox ?

I have not ran fluxbox in almost a decade so my memory has faded but this might clue you in https://wiki.archlin...x#Configuration
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#48 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:06 PM

Yeah, I've been all over that wiki.  and numerous fluxbox sites and sites for fluxbox theme/styles.  the information just doesn't seem to be addressed ANYWHERE, and I just can't find those default *.xpm button files anywhere on my system(s); neither ArchBang nor Ubuntu.  I've got 2 Ubuntu "test beds"; 1 with the default version 1.35 and the other is version 1.37 that I compiled from source.  Can't find them on either....hmmmm.....source....maybe I can get a peek into the source files before they're configure/make/installed?

#49 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 08 June 2016 - 11:46 PM

Looking into the source files, I think the window buttons are "baked into" the window decoration structure.  There are several "WindowButton.o" related files which are "object" files, and can't be peeked into.  But there are a couple of them, they're all located in the "SRC" folder, and I'm guessing these are the default Window Button decoration instructions/templates.  I can't verify it with 100% certainty, but invoking Occam's Razor would suggest that is probably the answer.

Openbox does something similar...provides default *.xbm files for ALL window buttons.  Put an alternative *.xbm in your theme config and it over-rides the default.  But Openbox puts the *.xbm defaults into a single folder tucked into an Openbox/Doc directory.  Apparently, Fluxbox takes a very similar approach (makes sense, right?!), but doesn't place the default *.xpm files in an accessible place.  Bummer.  But the theme/style behavior is still the same.  Provide an alternative and the alternative automatically overrides the defaults.  It is what it is...

#50 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 06:28 AM

You could always do a:

locate *.xbm

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