Possibility of alt-OS Lockout on New Hardware

[ebrke]

Apparently OEMs will no longer be required to allow users to turn off Secure Boot on win10 hardware.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windows-10-to-make-the-secure-boot-alt-os-lock-out-a-reality/

 

Lot of comments with varying opinions at the link, but to me this is not a good development for those of us who buy standard windows hardware with the intent of replacing the os. I can imagine how difficult it might be to find out whether a given piece of hardware from a certain OEM would or would not allow an alternate OS install.

[securitybreach]

That is a bad thing for the majority of users but this will still be available on aftermarket motherboards so DIY crowd (custom pc builders like myself) will not have much a problem. I really do not see motherboard manufactures preventing users from installing another operating system as it would backfire on them as the builders look for a motherboard based on features as well as price. No one in their right mind would choose a motherboard with a built in restriction no matter the other specs.

 

I have been building PCs for many years and trust me, no one is going to choose restriction over options.

 

The "desktop linux" userbase is still not the majority but it is big enough that manufacturers are taking notice and they would lose a good amount of potential buyers.

 

 

This is all just my opinion buts since Linux has taken over everything (phones, home applicances, dvrs, tablets, embedded systems, automotive systems, internet servers, pretty much every website you visit, etc.) but the desktop computer environment, manufactures have to take notice.

[Guest LilBambi]

Boo Hiss! Won't be buying any OEM (Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, Sony, Toshiba, etc.) manufacturer's computers if that's the case.

[ebrke]

Also found this link in one of the comments at Ars:

http://www.linuxfoundation.org/news-media/blogs/browse/2012/10/linux-foundation-uefi-secure-boot-system-open-source

the Linux Foundation and its Technical Advisory Board have produced a plan to enable the Linux (and indeed all Open Source based distributions) to continue operating as Secure Boot enabled systems roll out. In a nutshell, the Linux Foundation will obtain a Microsoft Key and sign a small pre-bootloader which will, in turn, chain load (without any form of signature check) a predesignated boot loader which will, in turn, boot Linux (or any other operating system). The pre-bootloader will employ a “present user” test to ensure that it cannot be used as a vector for any type of UEFI malware to target secure systems. This pre-bootloader can be used either to boot a CD/DVD installer or LiveCD distribution or even boot an installed operating system in secure mode for any distribution that chooses to use it. The process of obtaining a Microsoft signature will take a while, but once it is complete, the pre-bootloader will be placed on the Linux Foundation website for anyone to download and make use of.

This was posted at Linux Foundation in 2012. Wonder what, if any progress, has been made, since the pre-bootloader was supposed to be a "stopgap" measure.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Boo Hiss! Won't be buying any OEM (Dell, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, Sony, Toshiba, etc.) manufacturer's computers if that's the case.

 

I have NEVER... let me repeat that... NEVER bought an off-the-shelf brick and mortar (on cyber) store computer in my entire lifetime. I refuse to pay $3000 for a computer that I can build myself for $800.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

Interesting how MS dumps the "option" responsibility squarely in the laps of the manufacturers. Boy! That provides MS with a wonderful legal shield against lawsuits over this matter. All they need to say for a defense is, "Hey... we're not the ones who didn't offer the option."

[securitybreach]

Exactly Eric!!!!!

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

I saw the some of the slides in a different location (Neowin, perhaps?) where additional slides were shown as well, and it appeared to be part of a presentation for tablets running Windows, not desktop computers. The "desktop" oin the presentation referred to whether it was the "desktop" or "smartphone" version of Windows 10. There were also some slides about which buttons were mandatory, such as volume rocker buttons, a Windows button, power button, and so forth. It all sounded very similar to the requirements for Windows RT-based devices or Windows Phones.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

[lewmur]

Hello,

 

I saw the some of the slides in a different location (Neowin, perhaps?) where additional slides were shown as well, and it appeared to be part of a presentation for tablets running Windows, not desktop computers. The "desktop" oin the presentation referred to whether it was the "desktop" or "smartphone" version of Windows 10. There were also some slides about which buttons were mandatory, such as volume rocker buttons, a Windows button, power button, and so forth. It all sounded very similar to the requirements for Windows RT-based devices or Windows Phones.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Making excuses for MS again? The article made quite clear the difference between the two. And it was the "desktop/laptop" devices where the OEM had the OPTION of whether or not to include an "Off switch" for Secure Boot. On mobile devices, as with RT devices, that option ISN'T ALLOWED. That is a CHANGE from Windows 8 where the switch was MANDATORY for "desktop/laptop" devices.

 

Of course, it was only after the Open Source community raised such a stink that MS made it mandatory for Win 8. MS may well be trying to "sneak it by" in Win 10 and will back down again if enough pressure is brought to bear.

 

Won't affect me one way or the other 'cause I've never purchased a "retail" box in my life.

Edited March 22, 2015 by lewmur

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion I was "Making excuses for MS again?" In any case, back to the discussion at hand:

 

I believe I found a copy of the slide deck in question at files.channel9.msdn.com/thumbnail/2eb04802-c4bb-4112-b54b-cffc2b612d6e.pptx. It seems to be referencing tablet designs, which can run either "Windows Mobile" (the replacement for Windows Phone 8.1) or "Windows Desktop" (the replacement for WIndows 8.1). My reasoning for the latter is that slide #8, "Windows Desktop Minimum Hardware Requirements" specifies screen size and tablet buttons, which is something you are not likely to find on a desktop computer.

 

I will certainly agree that it is possible I am wrong and misinterpreting the slides. One thing I will readily admit to is that I'm not an expert in interpreting Microsoft's slide decks.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

P.S. Considering your opening statement, perhaps you will find the following article of interest: Goretsky, A. Windows 10 patching process may leave enterprises vulnerable to zero-day attacks, March 2015, Virus Bulletin.

 

Hello,

 

I saw the some of the slides in a different location (Neowin, perhaps?) where additional slides were shown as well, and it appeared to be part of a presentation for tablets running Windows, not desktop computers. The "desktop" oin the presentation referred to whether it was the "desktop" or "smartphone" version of Windows 10. There were also some slides about which buttons were mandatory, such as volume rocker buttons, a Windows button, power button, and so forth. It all sounded very similar to the requirements for Windows RT-based devices or Windows Phones.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Making excuses for MS again? The article made quite clear the difference between the two. And it was the "desktop/laptop" devices where the OEM had the OPTION of whether or not to include an "Off switch" for Secure Boot. On mobile devices, as with RT devices, that option ISN'T ALLOWED. That is a CHANGE from Windows 8 where the switch was MANDATORY for "desktop/laptop" devices.

 

Of course, it was only after the Open Source community raised such a stink that MS made it mandatory for Win 8. MS may well be trying to "sneak it by" in Win 10 and will back down again if enough pressure is brought to bear.

 

Won't affect me one way or the other 'cause I've never purchased a "retail" box in my life.

[Hedon James]

I'll agree with nearly everything said here. I still need at least 2 desktop machines and I'll just build my own. No problem...up yours M$ , as well as whatever hardware vendor who agreed to be your proxy (lackey?)!

 

Laptops and tablets are a different story though. How do you build your own? Can you buy barebones laptop or tablet kits? I'm not aware of any, although I'd ABSOLUTELY be interested in buying a laptop "carcass" with a MOBO and screen configuration, and just selecting my RAM, HD, and any other components. Until that is an option, I'm kinda stuck buying a M$ machine, ripping out Windows, and replacing with Linux. Until an alt-OS lockout occurs. At which time I'm limited to System76 and precious few other vendors. I'm thankful for those Linux OEM vendors, but their offerings just aren't on par with a M$ machine. Maybe it's all volume related, but HOW is it possible to offer a Linux OEM laptop with slightly lower specs and a free OS, but for slightly more money; which is my general observation of limited OEM Linux machines. I want my machines fully specced with hardware. I'm not wanting my lower-specced Linux machine to equal the higher-specced Windows machine in performance; I'm wanting my equal-specced Linux machine to OUTPERFORM the Windows Machine!!! I understand the concept of the Windows "tax" being borne by "bloat ware" installations on OEM, so I might be willing to pay a little extra for an equal specced Linux machine, but I'm not paying extra for lesser specs!

 

And don't get me started on tablets. I don't NEED a tablet, but it's nice to have one. And since I'm running Ubuntu on my desktop and my laptop, it'd be nice to have a tablet that runs it too. I've been hearing about convergence since about 2010 (Ubuntu 10.04 netbook remix), and tablets have been around since before that. And I have yet to see a SINGLE TABLET DEVICE running any version of Linux! The KDE Vivaldi tablet? Cancelled...dead before arrival. The UbuTab? Supposedly coming soon, but remains to be seen. Even Samsung, with all its resources to develop Tizen (linux based mobile OS) has failed to deliver a viable product. There are others, but those are just quick examples off the top of my head. I believe Jolla has actually produced a tablet with their Sailfish OS, compatible with Linux AND Android apps; a FANTASTIC idea, but I've never seen one in the wild where I can try before I buy. I've even looked online, but can't find one to purchase in the USA. Looking to install Ubuntu Touch on a tablet device, one must "pick their poison" of features that won't work on various tablets, but a convoluted installation on a Nexxus device is probably my best bet. But this is no "LiveSD" try-before-you-buy...it's a full installation and hope for the best. But if I was going to all that trouble to try a Linux installation on a tablet, I'd like it to be the Microsoft Surface Pro tablets. I like their form factors, with tablet/tent/netbook versatility, and they seem to have the best specs for tablets. And you just KNOW if they run Windows 8.x that Linux would absolutely SCREAM on that! Unfortunately, this is the one device that is nearly impossible to convert.

 

THIS is what an alt-OS lockout will look like IMO! And this is why Linux can't get any traction on these devices. A tablet device should have been the next logical extension to provide uptake for a sizable base of Linux-users who would like to purchase a linux tablet to extend their workflows, or just for consumption of content. This step would likely have simultaneously built momentum for other devices running Linux and, more importantly, would've accelerated the pace of development for other similar devices with additional features, i.e. SmartPhones. And I say this as a person who does NOT want an Ubuntu Phone until I have the apps to replace my Android phone functionality. But maybe if I had a "bridge device", such as a tablet, to show me what COULD be done with the apps and that OS, maybe I'd feel differently.

 

But I've digressed terribly from my original point. And to sum it all up, this alt-OS lockout is no big deal for desktops. While rumors of the desktop demise are greatly exaggerated, IMO, it's no exaggeration that user requirements have changed tremendously. My three kids (ages 18-24) all got their own machines upon HS graduation. When given the choice between a desktop or laptop, all three chose the laptop without hesitation, for reasons of portability. My 20 year old also purchased a tablet with graduation money; the 24 year old bought one in the past 6 months; the 18 year old already has one. All 3 have Android smartphones, and all 3 are perpetually glued to these devices; nearly constant use. They see the laptop as a work device; they see the phone as a connective necessity; and they see tablets as the "in between" device when a phone isn't quite enough, but the laptop is too much. The shift has already occurred, IMO; and, once again, the failure of Linux to "complete the circle of usability" has left Linux chasing users, instead of the other way around....(big sigh)...and the alt-OS lockout is just deja-vu of another round of battles that Linux users have always fought. Until Linux is a viable OEM option, this battle will CONTINUE to be fought...over, and over, and over again. JMO...

Edited March 25, 2015 by Hedon James

[securitybreach]

Barebone laptops: http://www.ebay.com/bhp/barebones-laptop

[ebrke]

A final thought--while several posters here have stated that they never buy hardware so this isn't an issue for them, some of us can't just build our own. What bothers me most, though, is that the repurposing of older hardware that will no longer comfortably run the current windows may be a thing of the past. For years I've been buying new hardware for my mother and then installing linux with a lightweight desktop environment on her old hardware for my own use, and that's worked out well--those days might be over now. I also think of people like Ken Starks at Reglue and the great work they do with kids who (like me) just can't afford new hardware, with or without windows--installing linux on donated hardware may get a whole lot harder for Ken and others (I'm hoping he recovers well from his current health challenges).

[abarbarian]

A final thought--while several posters here have stated that they never buy hardware so this isn't an issue for them, some of us can't just build our own. What bothers me most, though, is that the repurposing of older hardware that will no longer comfortably run the current windows may be a thing of the past. For years I've been buying new hardware for my mother and then installing linux with a lightweight desktop environment on her old hardware for my own use, and that's worked out well--those days might be over now. I also think of people like Ken Starks at Reglue and the great work they do with kids who (like me) just can't afford new hardware, with or without windows--installing linux on donated hardware may get a whole lot harder for Ken and others (I'm hoping he recovers well from his current health challenges).

 

If you can use a small Phillips screwdriver then you can certainly build your own desktop.

 

[securitybreach]

If you can use a small Phillips screwdriver then you can certainly build your own desktop.

 

 

As long as you know components are required... Things like matching processor and motherboard chipset, which ram to use, etc. but yes; it is very easy to do.

[abarbarian]

Barebone laptops: http://www.ebay.com/...arebones-laptop

 

There are these aswell,

 

https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-laptop

 

https://www.crowdsupply.com/kosagi/novena-open-laptop

 

[securitybreach]

 

There are these aswell,

 

https://www.crowdsup...m/librem-laptop

 

Those are extremely overpriced.

[V.T. Eric Layton]

A final thought--while several posters here have stated that they never buy hardware so this isn't an issue for them, some of us can't just build our own. What bothers me most, though, is that the repurposing of older hardware that will no longer comfortably run the current windows may be a thing of the past. For years I've been buying new hardware for my mother and then installing linux with a lightweight desktop environment on her old hardware for my own use, and that's worked out well--those days might be over now. I also think of people like Ken Starks at Reglue and the great work they do with kids who (like me) just can't afford new hardware, with or without windows--installing linux on donated hardware may get a whole lot harder for Ken and others (I'm hoping he recovers well from his current health challenges).

 

If you can use a small Phillips screwdriver then you can certainly build your own desktop.

 

 

That's almost nearly true. She would need just a little additional knowledge, though, all of which is available in tutorials and videos online these days.

 

They did a study a few years ago where they placed 100 chimpanzees in a work area where each had his own table, chair, Philips #2 screwdriver, and miscellaneous tower cases, mobos, drives, RAM sticks, psus, etc. 98 of the chimps were able to build a working computer within 24 hours. The two who could not manage this were immediately hired by Lenovo.

 

Edited March 25, 2015 by V.T. Eric Layton

[Capt.Crow]

It's pretty easy for some of us to put a barebones tower together, 2hrs max. . But my sympathy goes to the mechanically dyslexic who will continue to be ripped blind by the assemblers of preloaded machines.

[abarbarian]

There are these aswell,

 

https://www.crowdsup...m/librem-laptop

 

Those are extremely overpriced.

 

Heck matey innovation always costs

 

Hardest part of building a pc is fitting the cpu cooler.

As to choosing parts well once you have decided on ten or so budget changes it is fairly straightforward.

[securitybreach]

They did a study a few years ago where they placed 100 chimpanzees in a work area where each had his own table, chair, Philips #2 screwdriver, and miscellaneous tower cases, mobos, drives, RAM sticks, psus, etc. 98 of the chimps were able to build a working computer within 24 hours. The two who could not manage this were immediately hired by Lenovo.

 

 

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

Commodity hardware such as notebook computers is a commodity-driven market, which explains why you don't see many channel offerings for them with Linux preinstalled. Usually, when a company needs them, they provide a custom image to the manufacturer to preload on a few hundred or thousand computers. There are exceptions, of course, such as Dell's XPS 13 and Precision M3800 Linux-based offerings.

 

As far as tablets go, marketshare hovers (roughly) around 45% each for Android and iOS, with the remainder being various niche offerings. Of course, Android is derived from Linux, but that's probably not exactly the distro of Linux you're looking for, I would imagine.

 

The Jolla Tablet was actually crowdfunded on Indiegogo. I am hoping mine will arrive in June. As far as other devices go, the Nook HD and HD+ tablets have Micro SDXC slots, and I believe they can be booted from (I'm not sure if you have to unlock the bootloader or anything special like that, though).

 

It's my understanding that there's a quite lively community of people running various Linux distros on Surface Pro/2/3 tablets. I haven't tried it myself, but can't think of anything that would prevent it. I'm not sure how well all the advanced features of the Surface Pro 3's active stylus would work (you're probably not going to get OneNote integration in Linux) but I would imagine it would still work as a stylus for the screen's digitizer.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

 

I'll agree with nearly everything said here. I still need at least 2 desktop machines and I'll just build my own. No problem...up yours M$ , as well as whatever hardware vendor who agreed to be your proxy (lackey?)!

 

Laptops and tablets are a different story though. How do you build your own? Can you buy barebones laptop or tablet kits? I'm not aware of any, although I'd ABSOLUTELY be interested in buying a laptop "carcass" with a MOBO and screen configuration, and just selecting my RAM, HD, and any other components. Until that is an option, I'm kinda stuck buying a M$ machine, ripping out Windows, and replacing with Linux. Until an alt-OS lockout occurs. At which time I'm limited to System76 and precious few other vendors. I'm thankful for those Linux OEM vendors, but their offerings just aren't on par with a M$ machine. Maybe it's all volume related, but HOW is it possible to offer a Linux OEM laptop with slightly lower specs and a free OS, but for slightly more money; which is my general observation of limited OEM Linux machines. I want my machines fully specced with hardware. I'm not wanting my lower-specced Linux machine to equal the higher-specced Windows machine in performance; I'm wanting my equal-specced Linux machine to OUTPERFORM the Windows Machine!!! I understand the concept of the Windows "tax" being borne by "bloat ware" installations on OEM, so I might be willing to pay a little extra for an equal specced Linux machine, but I'm not paying extra for lesser specs!

 

And don't get me started on tablets. I don't NEED a tablet, but it's nice to have one. And since I'm running Ubuntu on my desktop and my laptop, it'd be nice to have a tablet that runs it too. I've been hearing about convergence since about 2010 (Ubuntu 10.04 netbook remix), and tablets have been around since before that. And I have yet to see a SINGLE TABLET DEVICE running any version of Linux! The KDE Vivaldi tablet? Cancelled...dead before arrival. The UbuTab? Supposedly coming soon, but remains to be seen. Even Samsung, with all its resources to develop Tizen (linux based mobile OS) has failed to deliver a viable product. There are others, but those are just quick examples off the top of my head. I believe Jolla has actually produced a tablet with their Sailfish OS, compatible with Linux AND Android apps; a FANTASTIC idea, but I've never seen one in the wild where I can try before I buy. I've even looked online, but can't find one to purchase in the USA. Looking to install Ubuntu Touch on a tablet device, one must "pick their poison" of features that won't work on various tablets, but a convoluted installation on a Nexxus device is probably my best bet. But this is no "LiveSD" try-before-you-buy...it's a full installation and hope for the best. But if I was going to all that trouble to try a Linux installation on a tablet, I'd like it to be the Microsoft Surface Pro tablets. I like their form factors, with tablet/tent/netbook versatility, and they seem to have the best specs for tablets. And you just KNOW if they run Windows 8.x that Linux would absolutely SCREAM on that! Unfortunately, this is the one device that is nearly impossible to convert.

 

THIS is what an alt-OS lockout will look like IMO! And this is why Linux can't get any traction on these devices. A tablet device should have been the next logical extension to provide uptake for a sizable base of Linux-users who would like to purchase a linux tablet to extend their workflows, or just for consumption of content. This step would likely have simultaneously built momentum for other devices running Linux and, more importantly, would've accelerated the pace of development for other similar devices with additional features, i.e. SmartPhones. And I say this as a person who does NOT want an Ubuntu Phone until I have the apps to replace my Android phone functionality. But maybe if I had a "bridge device", such as a tablet, to show me what COULD be done with the apps and that OS, maybe I'd feel differently.

 

But I've digressed terribly from my original point. And to sum it all up, this alt-OS lockout is no big deal for desktops. While rumors of the desktop demise are greatly exaggerated, IMO, it's no exaggeration that user requirements have changed tremendously. My three kids (ages 18-24) all got their own machines upon HS graduation. When given the choice between a desktop or laptop, all three chose the laptop without hesitation, for reasons of portability. My 20 year old also purchased a tablet with graduation money; the 24 year old bought one in the past 6 months; the 18 year old already has one. All 3 have Android smartphones, and all 3 are perpetually glued to these devices; nearly constant use. They see the laptop as a work device; they see the phone as a connective necessity; and they see tablets as the "in between" device when a phone isn't quite enough, but the laptop is too much. The shift has already occurred, IMO; and, once again, the failure of Linux to "complete the circle of usability" has left Linux chasing users, instead of the other way around....(big sigh)...and the alt-OS lockout is just deja-vu of another round of battles that Linux users have always fought. Until Linux is a viable OEM option, this battle will CONTINUE to be fought...over, and over, and over again. JMO...

 

Hello,

 

Again, it comes down to manufacturing volume. Building a completely custom board in small quantities is going to be pretty darned expensive.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

There are these aswell,

 

https://www.crowdsup...m/librem-laptop

 

Those are extremely overpriced.

[securitybreach]

Wow the Jolla Tablet is pretty cheap and powerful at less than $200

[abarbarian]

Wow the Jolla Tablet is pretty cheap and powerful at less than $200

 

Jolla's Sailfish operating system is a couple of years old now and is based on the open source Linux-based QT platform. It's been built from the ground up and privacy is a core principle for the OS. Jolla will not share data or let third parties monitor your tablet activity.

 

In the latest version, Sailfish 2.0, the Jolla community play a big part in influencing changes the company makes with later OTA updates. It's literally a case of picking the features that the users vote on the most. That's a refreshingly unique approach to evolving a mobile OS.

 

http://www.trustedreviews.com/jolla-tablet-review

 

The crowdfunding raised 480% more than was asked for. With better specs than an iPad and the above you can see why.

[securitybreach]

The crowdfunding raised 480% more than was asked for. With better specs than an iPad and the above you can see why.

 

Well my 4 year old HP Touchpad has better specs than the latest ipad (besides the resolution)...

[Hedon James]

Hello,

 

Commodity hardware such as notebook computers is a commodity-driven market, which explains why you don't see many channel offerings for them with Linux preinstalled. Usually, when a company needs them, they provide a custom image to the manufacturer to preload on a few hundred or thousand computers. There are exceptions, of course, such as Dell's XPS 13 and Precision M3800 Linux-based offerings.

 

As far as tablets go, marketshare hovers (roughly) around 45% each for Android and iOS, with the remainder being various niche offerings. Of course, Android is derived from Linux, but that's probably not exactly the distro of Linux you're looking for, I would imagine.

 

The Jolla Tablet was actually crowdfunded on Indiegogo. I am hoping mine will arrive in June. As far as other devices go, the Nook HD and HD+ tablets have Micro SDXC slots, and I believe they can be booted from (I'm not sure if you have to unlock the bootloader or anything special like that, though).

 

It's my understanding that there's a quite lively community of people running various Linux distros on Surface Pro/2/3 tablets. I haven't tried it myself, but can't think of anything that would prevent it. I'm not sure how well all the advanced features of the Surface Pro 3's active stylus would work (you're probably not going to get OneNote integration in Linux) but I would imagine it would still work as a stylus for the screen's digitizer.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

 

Thanks for that response Aryeh; some good info there!

 

I understand what you're saying about commodity hardware, but I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit. There are obviously a lot of folks who either dual-boot Windows/linux on their laptops, or just replace Windows with Linux completely. Unfortunately, that number can't be quantified. Dell has some Linux offerings, but they're very much upper-end laptops and I'm not sure they're even available in USA (another question for another day). Inasmuch as the hundreds/thousands of Linux distros all share the Linux kernel, they all have access to the same basic drivers. Seems to me that a standardized offering of hardware (a "palette" of manufacturers, devices, etc...) could be made available with only a little bit of thought & planning. On the lower end of the spectrum, Google's chromebooks run the Linux kernel quite nicely, and somewhat impressively for their specs! And because of this, it's a fairly simple matter to install a Linux distro with Crouton. Unfortunately, due to the limited specs and hard drive of a chromebook, you must choose your Linux distro wisely; the one you WANT may not be the best choice. Inasmuch as Google has provided the "proof of concept", seems like manufacturers could offer a "middle spec" machine somewhere between the entry-level lower-spec chromebooks and the upper-level upper-spec Dell developer offerings. It doesn't have to be a "linux only" device...but if it's Google Chrome-capable, it should also be linux-capable. How awesome would a chromebook be if the hard drive could be replaced with more than 16-32GB? Or bump the RAM from 2-4GB to perhaps 4GB-8GB? Or how about making the largest 13" chromebook screens available in 15 & 17" models?

 

My wife has a chromebook and LOVES it! I've been impressed with her little 13" form factor, with 16GB flash drive and only 2GB RAM. It runs amazing! But I'm no fan of cloud computing and I refuse to hand over custody of MY data to a third party and, eventually, pay them to keep/watch it. Hard drives are quite inexpensive nowadays, and I'll do it myself, thank you very much! Obviously, I'm not a fan of the ChromeOS. It's perfect for her, but I'd prefer a Linux distro with native software of my choosing. A linux installation with Crouton appears to be quite simple (she won't let me yet...afraid something will happen to her work machine...understandable), but Crouton is very similar to a VM wherein you end up splitting the RAM and using additional HD area. I suspect this will be unsatisfactory for MY preferrred distro. Let me bump the hard drive to a 120-250GB SSD and install 4-8GB in that Chromebook and we're no longer having this conversation. Throw in the option for 15 & 17" screens and I'll log off right NOW and go buy one TODAY!!! Yes, I've hi-jacked the concepts and appeal of a Chromebook, but those concepts don't appeal to ME. What DOES appeal to me is the fact that OEM Chrome devices run the Linux kernel, so it CAN be done, profitably, if one chooses to!!!

 

With respect to the tablet market, your citations of 45% share EACH for Android and iOS is a kind of proof of what I'm trying to convey. In a commodity market where there are only 2 basic offerings, I'm somewhat surprised that they have ONLY cornered 90% of the market? With an 8 year head start (circa 2007 for iOS?), there are still 10% of fragmented users who have cobbled together their own ecosystem. I'm sure the number is higher, because I know there are many like me who have been patiently waiting for a Linux device since at least 2010 (when it was first mentioned as "coming soon"). Again, can't be quantified, but I think safe to assume > 10%.

 

I'd love to hear about your Jolla Tablet when you get your hands on one! I was very interested in checking out the Jolla, as I think their Sailfish OS shows a lot of promise, drawing from existing Linux-based software offerings, as well as offering Android compatibility. If it works as advertised, perhaps Sailfish OS is the Linux-based game-changer to disrupt the Android/iOS duopoly. As a very happy Ubuntu user, I'd prefer to see the promised convergence concept in action. Not sure if it's for me, but I do want to try it before I form my opinion. Unsurprisingly, I do use Android smartphones and tablets, due to their ability to integrate with my Ubuntu desktops and laptops. I'm not dissatisfied with Android offerings, and if nothing better comes along, I'll be no worse off. But I would like to have the option to TRY an Ubuntu tablet for convergence features, or to TRY a Jolla tablet to see if it's a better fit for my computing style/needs. Please share your thoughts on your Jolla when you get it!

 

Lastly, you are correct about the MS Surface tablet hackers and Linux distros, but I should've been more specific. Everything I've seen indicates that something doesn't work. Most often, it's the wireless connectivity and the keyboard. Wireless connectivity is kind of important on a tablet, and I don't consider a nano-usb dongle to be an acceptable workaround on a tablet. And part of the appeal of the Surface Pro is the keyboard and the options it provides to do "real" work. If the keyboard doesn't work, I might as well choose an easier target with no keyboard, and no wifi issues. For me, it's not ready for Linux yet. And there's my frustrations, in a nutshell. I've been hearing about Linux tablets "coming soon" since about 2010-ish. 5 years later, we still don't have a Linux tablet and we still can't hack a tablet with a fully functional linux distro, like we do with desktops and laptops. I would rather hear "Linux isn't for tablets" than to hear it's "coming soon" for 5+ years. Again, JMO...

[Guest LilBambi]

Hello,

 

I saw the some of the slides in a different location (Neowin, perhaps?) where additional slides were shown as well, and it appeared to be part of a presentation for tablets running Windows, not desktop computers. The "desktop" oin the presentation referred to whether it was the "desktop" or "smartphone" version of Windows 10. There were also some slides about which buttons were mandatory, such as volume rocker buttons, a Windows button, power button, and so forth. It all sounded very similar to the requirements for Windows RT-based devices or Windows Phones.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Thank you Aryeh! Did not realize it was a slide show intended for RT tablets.

 

I was hopeful that was the case, but did not see the original slideshow.

 

Thanks for the debunk.

 

It is sad that this is the case with RT tablets but thankfully Microsoft did not do that with Desktop/Laptops and full Win 8.1 tablets... At least that is my my take from what you said? Or is this all tablets RT and full Win 8.1 as well?

[Guest LilBambi]

Hello,

 

I am uncertain how you came to the conclusion I was "Making excuses for MS again?" In any case, back to the discussion at hand:

 

I believe I found a copy of the slide deck in question at files.channel9.msdn.com/thumbnail/2eb04802-c4bb-4112-b54b-cffc2b612d6e.pptx. It seems to be referencing tablet designs, which can run either "Windows Mobile" (the replacement for Windows Phone 8.1) or "Windows Desktop" (the replacement for WIndows 8.1). My reasoning for the latter is that slide #8, "Windows Desktop Minimum Hardware Requirements" specifies screen size and tablet buttons, which is something you are not likely to find on a desktop computer.

 

I will certainly agree that it is possible I am wrong and misinterpreting the slides. One thing I will readily admit to is that I'm not an expert in interpreting Microsoft's slide decks.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

P.S. Considering your opening statement, perhaps you will find the following article of interest: Goretsky, A. Windows 10 patching process may leave enterprises vulnerable to zero-day attacks, March 2015, Virus Bulletin.

 

Hello,

 

I saw the some of the slides in a different location (Neowin, perhaps?) where additional slides were shown as well, and it appeared to be part of a presentation for tablets running Windows, not desktop computers. The "desktop" oin the presentation referred to whether it was the "desktop" or "smartphone" version of Windows 10. There were also some slides about which buttons were mandatory, such as volume rocker buttons, a Windows button, power button, and so forth. It all sounded very similar to the requirements for Windows RT-based devices or Windows Phones.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

Making excuses for MS again? The article made quite clear the difference between the two. And it was the "desktop/laptop" devices where the OEM had the OPTION of whether or not to include an "Off switch" for Secure Boot. On mobile devices, as with RT devices, that option ISN'T ALLOWED. That is a CHANGE from Windows 8 where the switch was MANDATORY for "desktop/laptop" devices.

 

Of course, it was only after the Open Source community raised such a stink that MS made it mandatory for Win 8. MS may well be trying to "sneak it by" in Win 10 and will back down again if enough pressure is brought to bear.

 

Won't affect me one way or the other 'cause I've never purchased a "retail" box in my life.

 

Awesome! Was hopeful it was only RT.

 

Should have read all before responding! LOL!

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

Businesses exist fundamentally to make money. If there's money to be made selling systems with Linux pre-loaded on them, then some businesses will do so. So far, though, this seems to be limited to small volumes (some laptops as you noted, some high-end workstations, etc.) which leads me to believe that it's a niche market, at least compared to Windows and OS X.

 

Chromebooks are minimally-specc'ed because they are terminals for Google's servers; I do not think you are going to see any with large amounts of storage or memory. That would be antithetical to relying on Google's services

 

The information on the tablets was approximate from looking at several marketshare reports, but between Android and iOS the amount is likely to be just a little over 90% (92-93%, perhaps).

 

On the plus side, Jolla contacted me because of a small discrepancy in my contact information (which has since been fixed). That they are looking at such things now is a good indicator that they are going to be shipping in a reasonable amount of time.

 

I use a wireless (Bluetooth) Lenovo ThinkPad keyboard with my Surface Pro 2 as I don't care for Microsoft's (connected) keyboard. Not enough pitch for me. I never had any trouble with it, but the tablet was running the Microsoft installed copy of Winodws 8.1 Pro. As far as I know, the Bluetooth module used inside the Surface Pro line is a regular commercial part (Marvell Semiconductors, I believe). If there are issues with using a Bluetooth keyboard, it likely affects all computer brands that use that part, not just those from Microsoft.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

Hello,

 

Commodity hardware such as notebook computers is a commodity-driven market, which explains why you don't see many channel offerings for them with Linux preinstalled. Usually, when a company needs them, they provide a custom image to the manufacturer to preload on a few hundred or thousand computers. There are exceptions, of course, such as Dell's XPS 13 and Precision M3800 Linux-based offerings.

 

As far as tablets go, marketshare hovers (roughly) around 45% each for Android and iOS, with the remainder being various niche offerings. Of course, Android is derived from Linux, but that's probably not exactly the distro of Linux you're looking for, I would imagine.

 

The Jolla Tablet was actually crowdfunded on Indiegogo. I am hoping mine will arrive in June. As far as other devices go, the Nook HD and HD+ tablets have Micro SDXC slots, and I believe they can be booted from (I'm not sure if you have to unlock the bootloader or anything special like that, though).

 

It's my understanding that there's a quite lively community of people running various Linux distros on Surface Pro/2/3 tablets. I haven't tried it myself, but can't think of anything that would prevent it. I'm not sure how well all the advanced features of the Surface Pro 3's active stylus would work (you're probably not going to get OneNote integration in Linux) but I would imagine it would still work as a stylus for the screen's digitizer.

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky

 

 

Thanks for that response Aryeh; some good info there!

 

I understand what you're saying about commodity hardware, but I'd like to play devil's advocate for a bit. There are obviously a lot of folks who either dual-boot Windows/linux on their laptops, or just replace Windows with Linux completely. Unfortunately, that number can't be quantified. Dell has some Linux offerings, but they're very much upper-end laptops and I'm not sure they're even available in USA (another question for another day). Inasmuch as the hundreds/thousands of Linux distros all share the Linux kernel, they all have access to the same basic drivers. Seems to me that a standardized offering of hardware (a "palette" of manufacturers, devices, etc...) could be made available with only a little bit of thought & planning. On the lower end of the spectrum, Google's chromebooks run the Linux kernel quite nicely, and somewhat impressively for their specs! And because of this, it's a fairly simple matter to install a Linux distro with Crouton. Unfortunately, due to the limited specs and hard drive of a chromebook, you must choose your Linux distro wisely; the one you WANT may not be the best choice. Inasmuch as Google has provided the "proof of concept", seems like manufacturers could offer a "middle spec" machine somewhere between the entry-level lower-spec chromebooks and the upper-level upper-spec Dell developer offerings. It doesn't have to be a "linux only" device...but if it's Google Chrome-capable, it should also be linux-capable. How awesome would a chromebook be if the hard drive could be replaced with more than 16-32GB? Or bump the RAM from 2-4GB to perhaps 4GB-8GB? Or how about making the largest 13" chromebook screens available in 15 & 17" models?

 

My wife has a chromebook and LOVES it! I've been impressed with her little 13" form factor, with 16GB flash drive and only 2GB RAM. It runs amazing! But I'm no fan of cloud computing and I refuse to hand over custody of MY data to a third party and, eventually, pay them to keep/watch it. Hard drives are quite inexpensive nowadays, and I'll do it myself, thank you very much! Obviously, I'm not a fan of the ChromeOS. It's perfect for her, but I'd prefer a Linux distro with native software of my choosing. A linux installation with Crouton appears to be quite simple (she won't let me yet...afraid something will happen to her work machine...understandable), but Crouton is very similar to a VM wherein you end up splitting the RAM and using additional HD area. I suspect this will be unsatisfactory for MY preferrred distro. Let me bump the hard drive to a 120-250GB SSD and install 4-8GB in that Chromebook and we're no longer having this conversation. Throw in the option for 15 & 17" screens and I'll log off right NOW and go buy one TODAY!!! Yes, I've hi-jacked the concepts and appeal of a Chromebook, but those concepts don't appeal to ME. What DOES appeal to me is the fact that OEM Chrome devices run the Linux kernel, so it CAN be done, profitably, if one chooses to!!!

 

With respect to the tablet market, your citations of 45% share EACH for Android and iOS is a kind of proof of what I'm trying to convey. In a commodity market where there are only 2 basic offerings, I'm somewhat surprised that they have ONLY cornered 90% of the market? With an 8 year head start (circa 2007 for iOS?), there are still 10% of fragmented users who have cobbled together their own ecosystem. I'm sure the number is higher, because I know there are many like me who have been patiently waiting for a Linux device since at least 2010 (when it was first mentioned as "coming soon"). Again, can't be quantified, but I think safe to assume > 10%.

 

I'd love to hear about your Jolla Tablet when you get your hands on one! I was very interested in checking out the Jolla, as I think their Sailfish OS shows a lot of promise, drawing from existing Linux-based software offerings, as well as offering Android compatibility. If it works as advertised, perhaps Sailfish OS is the Linux-based game-changer to disrupt the Android/iOS duopoly. As a very happy Ubuntu user, I'd prefer to see the promised convergence concept in action. Not sure if it's for me, but I do want to try it before I form my opinion. Unsurprisingly, I do use Android smartphones and tablets, due to their ability to integrate with my Ubuntu desktops and laptops. I'm not dissatisfied with Android offerings, and if nothing better comes along, I'll be no worse off. But I would like to have the option to TRY an Ubuntu tablet for convergence features, or to TRY a Jolla tablet to see if it's a better fit for my computing style/needs. Please share your thoughts on your Jolla when you get it!

 

Lastly, you are correct about the MS Surface tablet hackers and Linux distros, but I should've been more specific. Everything I've seen indicates that something doesn't work. Most often, it's the wireless connectivity and the keyboard. Wireless connectivity is kind of important on a tablet, and I don't consider a nano-usb dongle to be an acceptable workaround on a tablet. And part of the appeal of the Surface Pro is the keyboard and the options it provides to do "real" work. If the keyboard doesn't work, I might as well choose an easier target with no keyboard, and no wifi issues. For me, it's not ready for Linux yet. And there's my frustrations, in a nutshell. I've been hearing about Linux tablets "coming soon" since about 2010-ish. 5 years later, we still don't have a Linux tablet and we still can't hack a tablet with a fully functional linux distro, like we do with desktops and laptops. I would rather hear "Linux isn't for tablets" than to hear it's "coming soon" for 5+ years. Again, JMO...

[goretsky]

Hello,

 

Somewhat related to the current discussion, Dell has release additional notebooks running Linux: http://arstechnica.c...ety-of-configs/

 

Regards,

 

Aryeh Goretsky