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Formatting Larger Hard Drives in Win98SE


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#51 OFFLINE   zlim

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Posted 22 February 2006 - 03:15 PM

Guess I'll need to take another look at BootIt. I looked at it a few years back and didn't quite "get it" so I bought Partiton Magic. But I have several computers so I'm always open to other choices.
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#52 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:51 AM

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Starting with a dead empty drive....CREATE "your" primary partition to whatever size you want from free space. The primary FAT32 drive is type 12/Ch if active. Anyway, from the MBR view, you can change active to inactive to your hearts content.Then from the Partition Work view again, CREATE "your" logical drive, using however much space you want, type 5/Fh I believe. Then within the logical drive create what ever and how many ever drives you want. Those drives are of type 11/Bh. There is also the option to FORMAT all these drives as you create them, and Bootit format is REALLY fast. Is easy. The help files are a bit cryptic, but all you need to know IS there.
Hmmmmm...Nope, I'm still not getting it. I did all you describe, to the extent humanly possible, but it wasn't my experience that I could "change active to inactive to (my) hearts content." Nope. Wasn't that way at all. What am I missing? I did easily find the MBR View screen you describe. The only option button that even vaguely relates to active/inactive was a button labeled "Active". I could see no way whatever to set my newly created primary partition from active to inactive. Yep, this utility also wants to set partitions to active. And keep 'em that way. I've got to be missing something here, but what? BTW I found that fdisk is also biased towards having the partition active. I saw no option whatever for setting it inactive that way. BTW I was also successful in setting up the 'logical' drive you describe ('extended'?). I didn't proceed further to subdividing that one into any smaller logical partitions.Further fine detail- initially, the only option for a primary partition is type 11/Bh FAT-32. I chose it. The only option for an extended partition is 5/5h Extended. I chose that. After creating them, I found there were lots more types visible under Properties. In addition to 11/Bh FAT-32 there was also 12/Ch FAT-32. But I was initially only offered the first type as a choice. Also, my type 5/5h Extended selection gets changed to a type 15/Fh Extended, whatever that implies.Yes, Bootit formats really fast. It also starts to do a scan after making the partition, which is rather slow, but you can just blow by that. I did. And yes, the Help files are, er, 'cryptic' to say the least. I don't think their Help files are their greatest asset, let's say. Darned near useless, in fact, but the utility itself is just plain excellent! So I hope to learn to drive it eventually. Heh!  ;)
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#53 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:09 AM

View Postzlim, on Feb 22 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

Guess I'll need to take another look at BootIt. I looked at it a few years back and didn't quite "get it" so I bought Partiton Magic. But I have several computers so I'm always open to other choices.
Fred Langa lost his patience with Power Quest when their software started to get really bloated and was actually losing features in some ways. So when he found BootitNG he was very enthusiastic indeed. It combines all the features of a ton of other software costing several hundred bucks for a mere 35 bucks, and it is waaaaay smaller and it works way better. But he warned it is rather geeky and a lot of folks may not 'get it'. I think there must be a wicked learning curve with BootitNG, and their Help files are not very helpful. They do have a great .pdf file you can download that does a more than adequate job of hand holding as it walks you through drive imaging, partitioning, setting up multi boot drives, etc. But there must be a lot of undocumented or informally documented stuff that just gets passed around, as in this thread. I know of nothing written by the software authors that describes what the heck an "11/Bh FAT-32" or a "12/Ch FAT-32" partition type is. Maybe I've just overlooked it, but I've never seen it. There is much under the hood that is probably not well known, by virtue of not being in their help file or other documents. But *still* I like this software a *lot*.BTW I have copies of Partition Magic 4.0 and Drive Image 5.0. You can buy these reasonably on the internet. I found some on Ebay. DI5.0 was probably the peak for Power Quest. It does work in XP, too. But 6 was iffy and 7 was apparently such a dog that Fred Langa recommended passing on it. I really like my PM4 and DI5 a lot! They do the job. Power Quest got bought and is no longer in the business anyway. From all I hear, Bootit is pretty hard to beat in this area now.
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#54 OFFLINE   Marsden11

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 04:31 AM

And if you were running XP, all of this would be moot as you could do all of your formatting and configuring from Disk Management. Even create Dynamic disks and just pop them in and out.

#55 OFFLINE   Specmon

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:17 AM

Clutter,Sorry, I wrote a lot of that from memory, so I went back and played with a drive doing what you wanted.  I found that after creating the primary drive and the others, then going to "View MBR" that the primary drive was not yet active.  It would stay that way unless I clicked the "Set Active" button while the partition was selected.  Once selected, I was not able to reset to Inactive unless I canceled that view without "Apply"  So the key is to just not set it active in the first place.

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Further fine detail- initially, the only option for a primary partition is type 11/Bh FAT-32. I chose it. The only option for an extended partition is 5/5h Extended. I chose that. After creating them, I found there were lots more types visible under Properties. In addition to 11/Bh FAT-32 there was also 12/Ch FAT-32. But I was initially only offered the first type as a choice. Also, my type 5/5h Extended selection gets changed to a type 15/Fh Extended, whatever that implies.
And this is what I find also.

#56 OFFLINE   Specmon

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 05:54 AM

I haven't checked this. but if you are setting up a blank drive with BootitNG and the drive is the only one in the machine (HD0), then Bootit might set the primary drive as active automatically.  This doesn't happen if the drive in question is HD1.I say this because I noticed a switch in "Settings" of maintenance mode that says "Keep HD0 Active"And I found this in the Bootit Knowledge Base:

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How to Manually Set a Partition "Active"To set a partition active using BootIt Next Generation do the following:   1. Boot from the BootIt NG Installation diskette.   2. Click the cancel button to enter "maintenance mode".   3. Click on the Partition Work button.   4. Click on the View MBR button.   5. Highlight the partition you want active and click on the Set Active button.   6. Click on the apply button. To prevent this in the future, be sure that the Keep HD0 Active option in BootIt NG is enabled.
I've only been playing with a blank drive as slave, (HD1) and the primary partition is generated in the inactive state.  So this probably only comes up when you are partitioning a drive as the only one in a machine.

#57 OFFLINE   lewmur

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 10:36 AM

View PostSpecmon, on Feb 23 2006, 06:17 AM, said:

Clutter,Sorry, I wrote a lot of that from memory, so I went back and played with a drive doing what you wanted.  I found that after creating the primary drive and the others, then going to "View MBR" that the primary drive was not yet active.  It would stay that way unless I clicked the "Set Active" button while the partition was selected.  Once selected, I was not able to reset to Inactive unless I canceled that view without "Apply"  So the key is to just not set it active in the first place.And this is what I find also.
Won't setting the right partition to "active" make ALL the others "inactive?"

#58 OFFLINE   Specmon

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:04 PM

At least in Windows, there can only be one Active (visible) partition on a machine.Except as determined by the "Set HD0 as Active" switch in Settings, Bootit NG creates all partitions as inactive by default.I believe that if you have the Bootit NG boot manager installed as its own tiny partition, you could have several active partitions (and operating systems) although you may still need to keep all but one hidden.

#59 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 02:33 PM

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Won't setting the right partition to "active" make ALL the others "inactive?"
Yes. There's only one active flag. But this scenario won't even exist if all you are going to do is create a logical partition. That active flag applies only to primary partitions. This partitioning problem is simple. Just run a partitioning software pre-OS, delete all exisiting partitions on new disk, create extended/logical partition on that disk, and format that partition as FAT32. No need for cloning/copying of exisiting partitions, and for a boot manager.

#60 OFFLINE   Specmon

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:05 PM

Clutter,What b2cm says here makes sense.You don't need a primary partition on the second drive, why make one?I haven't done this, and I don't have a drive that I can blank for a test, but I'll bet that when you CREATE with Bootit NG, you will be able to just create an Extended Partition right off the bat, using the whole drive, then break it into whatever size volumes you want, or leave it as one Logical Volume.  Then there is no fuss about "active."Let us know if Bootit does this for you.

#61 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:16 PM

View PostSpecmon, on Feb 23 2006, 04:54 AM, said:

I haven't checked this. but if you are setting up a blank drive with BootitNG and the drive is the only one in the machine (HD0), then Bootit might set the primary drive as active automatically.  This doesn't happen if the drive in question is HD1.
Yes, I pretty much figured this out last night before I went to bed. An instance of Bootit being 'just too darned smart'. Heh! I will try the whole thing again, but this time in a machine where I also have another drive with an active 98SE partition on it. Indeed, I was operating on 'HD0' last night. Doh! I'll check back in shortly with my results. ("In a moment, the results of that trial...")  :whistling:  ;)Er, ah- yes, I'd also figgered out to try putting only an Extended partition on the drive. Doh!

Edited by Cluttermagnet, 23 February 2006 - 03:21 PM.

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#62 OFFLINE   zlim

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 03:42 PM

Wouldn't ya know it, I got the worst version of the lot. I have PM7 and got it to work on my laptop running ME and 2K and a flavor of linux with lilo loaded on the partition, not the mbr.Do two dogs cancel each other out? (ME and PM7)I had to get some non-existent support for an old product (I think 8 was out when I asked for help on 7 and of course they wanted me to buy an upgrade. I may be crazy but I'm not stupid. Why buy an upgrade when I'm not sure the version I had in my hands would ever be workable). I found some help and files for errors that I was getting. I saved all my notes, put the files on floppies and have the lot inside the PM manual soooo if I need to reinstall, I won't waste time trying to hunt for the same workaround.In my 98 tower, I put a 2nd hard drive and ran up against the problem you are facing - how to format a drive in a 98 computer. It originally was in a 95 computer and had some overlay software on it so the computer could use the entire 4 gigs. LOL I removed the overlay software and then the 95 upgraded to 98 and the other 98 computer could not see the drive.I finally had to cable it to my 2K to get the job done. When I saw the USB gizmo with power for both sizes of hard drives, CDs and DVDs, I knew that's what I needed.
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#63 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 23 February 2006 - 08:33 PM

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Wouldn't ya know it, I got the worst version of the lot. I have PM7 and got it to work on my laptop running ME and 2K and a flavor of linux with lilo loaded on the partition, not the mbr. Do two dogs cancel each other out? (ME and PM7)
Not really sure I got you right. ME and 2K dos not install anything in the MBR. The only thing these operating systems do that has to do with the MBR is rewrite it (like 'fdisk /mbr' and 'fixmbr') during the setup/install process. PM7 is a software that allows you to create, delete or manipulate partitions (without losing data). As such it always writes to the MBR to implement any disk/partition changes you make using the software. But it does not install itself to the MBR. Only boot managers (and maybe viruses) install themselves to the MBR. I can't see how ME and PM7 could cancel each other in the MBR. Both has nothing to cancel. However, if you installed LILO in the MBR, reinstalling ME would wipe out LILO. PM7 also could, on its own, 'fix' the MBR and wipe out any LILO code in there. LILO can also be installed in the Linux partition's boot block instead of the MBR, but you would need a boot manager to boot that partition.

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In my 98 tower, I put a 2nd hard drive and ran up against the problem you are facing - how to format a drive in a 98 computer. It originally was in a 95 computer and had some overlay software on it so the computer could use the entire 4 gigs. LOL I removed the overlay software and then the 95 upgraded to 98 and the other 98 computer could not see the drive.
If you use overlay software, you have to execute your disk operations like format AFTER the overlay software/drivers are loaded. If you removed the overlay software (and it can only be removed by running the same utility that installed it), first clear the MBR and repartition all over again. Then install your operating system/s.

#64 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 03:57 AM

Well, good news! You guys were right- what was needed was to run the new 120G drive on one of my 98SE machines in the presence of another bootable drive with the OS on it. Using Bootit and now operating on HD1, I found I could install a Primary partition that is inactive- and in fact, Bootit did that by default. BTW I first tried simply making the entire new drive an extended partition. That didn't work- my OS couldn't see it. But if I set it up with a Primary partition, there it was when I looked using 98SE. The more I think about it, the more sense that makes, intuitively. As a quick test, I copied a small text file from C: to D:, the new drive. Bingo!Thanks, guys. This has been a great exercise, and I learned more about BootitNG than I already knew. I like it even more now. I still have to play a bit with all this to reinforce my understanding and to further subdivide the drive (new Logical partitions within the ~115G Extended partition). I can use Bootit or Partition Magic to shrink the Primary partition, I suppose, but I might as well leave it at about 5G where I started. To me, 120G feels like 'a lot' of space. And I may end up migrating my 98SE OS onto the big drive. Why not? I can put the small drive in a portable USB case and drag it around with me. I have one of those critters. Liz, it was DI7 that was the dog. I don't know anything about PM beyond the rev. 4 version I own, but it was Drive Image 7.0 that was getting all the flak. A lot more folks than just Fred Langa were having trouble with that one. DI5 was supposedly the pinnacle of achievement for Power Quest. That's the one I went after on Ebay, and that's the one I'd recommend, based on a lot of reading about all the grief with v. 6 and especially 7. And DI5 will work with XP. A search of the Langa site would dredge up a bunch of good items regarding drive imaging, multi-booting, etc.

Edited by Cluttermagnet, 24 February 2006 - 04:16 AM.

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#65 OFFLINE   b2cm

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 12:35 PM

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BTW I first tried simply making the entire new drive an extended partition. That didn't work- my OS couldn't see it.
After creating the extended partition, create the logical partitions within it, and format these logical partitions as FAT/32. Then Windows 9x/ME will see these partitions.

#66 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 01:23 AM

View Postb2cm, on Feb 24 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

After creating the extended partition, create the logical partitions within it, and format these logical partitions as FAT/32. Then Windows 9x/ME will see these partitions.
Yes, I understand that now. Once I split the Extended space into 3 Logical partitions, they, too, became visible to 98SE. So I could have done that at the outset. But I think I'll keep my 5G Primary partition anyway, because I will probably clone my OS into it soon.  BTW I also set up my 80G Maxtor in addition to the 120G Seagate. Everything went smooth with both drives. Now I'll put them both to work. That will free up a couple of small drives, 4G and 8G, for something else- like use in my external USB case or with a Linux distro.Now that I have larger drives, I can accumulate various drive images without running out of storage. (Yes, of course I'm making CD copies, too) Thanks again for the help, guys. Much appreciated!  :thumbsup:
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#67 OFFLINE   burninbush

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 01:30 PM

I'll just add for the thread -- cfdisk, a partition tool commonly found on every linux livecd, will do this partitioning task perfectly well at zero cost, with none of the huffing and puffing described up the thread required.  "Active" is just a single bit set in a partition -- cfdisk calls it a 'bootable' flag -- and it will happily set it on all your partitions if you want, and will then warn you that the result will not be bootable by msdos, which insists that only one partition per drive have the bootable flag set.  You absolutely can have both drives in a two drive machine bootable -- msdos will not complain about that, and it makes it easy to choose [in bios] to boot from one or the other.

#68 OFFLINE   Cluttermagnet

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Posted 25 February 2006 - 06:23 PM

View Postburninbush, on Feb 25 2006, 12:30 PM, said:

You absolutely can have both drives in a two drive machine bootable -- msdos will not complain about that, and it makes it easy to choose [in bios] to boot from one or the other.
Thanks! Very useful information.  :thumbsup:
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#69 OFFLINE   burninbush

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 08:31 PM

View PostCluttermagnet, on Feb 25 2006, 02:23 PM, said:

Thanks! Very useful information.  :thumbsup:
Forgot to add something that might be pertinent -- depending on how you fdisk, what tool you use, you might have to temporarily uncable the first drive to get standard msdos fdisk to let you set the 2nd drive active.  That done, put the cable back and you can freely boot from either. Since discovering linux a couple years back, I may never need to run MS fdisk or format again.  The cfdisk I mentioned above makes it SO much easier to partition, and a format -- #mkfs.msdos -F 32 /dev/hdaN will complete in just seconds on even a 100gb partition.

Edited by burninbush, 26 February 2006 - 08:32 PM.





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