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Techies - Pah!


raymac46

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Well some techies, anyway,

My back neighbor has an 87 year old sister, and when her XP machine died a year or so ago I provided her with a gently used Dell Desktop equipped with Linux Mint. She's been happily using it until - she got ill and had to relocate from her apartment to a seniors' complex in Ottawa.

Now this desktop had a perfectly functioning Atheros based wifi adapter and in fact I had her set up on a small wifi LAN at the apartment so that her brother could use his iPad when he visited her. The seniors' home has its own wifi network like the Holiday Inn. So just join that, right? No problem.

The staff at the home tried for days to connect Jean's computer and finally brought in their resident techie. This prat pronounced her Linux system "incompatible" with the wifi network because it wasn't Windows. I don't know how he thought Android tablets, cell phones, iPads, Macs, etc would connect - but no matter. He recommended she buy a USB wifi adapter and of course when this was connected it didn't work either.

Her brother - a Mac user - went over to the home, turned the machine on, found Network Manager, selected the wifi network, put in the password and Jean was online in 30 seconds. So much for technical advice. He returned the USB dongle as it was obviously redundant.

I don't know how you can call yourself a techie if all you know (and want to know) is Windows.

I'm going over next week to check things out. The machine is acting flaky on bootup and I think it needs a new CMOS battery. At that time i"ll install Linux Mint 17 and check over the wifi issue. Duh.

Edited by raymac46
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securitybreach

Your right. It is best to have an all around experience with the three OSs even if it is just familiarity. Even more so, a techie should be able to figure something simple out even if they have never messed with said OS. The center's tech guy was probably the guy who took Computer Science 30 years ago and knows more than the others about technology so he is the computer guy. Just because your the computer guy doesn't mean you know about computers. Think of tech support....

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Guest LilBambi

The problem isn't Windows though. The problem is the lack of diagnostics/troubleshooting skills on the part of the so called techie.

Edited by LilBambi
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securitybreach

The problem isn't Windows though. The problem is the lack of diagnostics/troubleshooting skills on the part of the so called techie.

 

Agreed :thumbup:

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I'm going over next week to check things out. The machine is acting flaky on bootup and I think it needs a new CMOS battery. At that time i"ll install Linux Mint 17 and check over the wifi issue. Duh.
Great that you can/will help her out. :star:
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The problem isn't Windows though. The problem is the lack of diagnostics/troubleshooting skills on the part of the so called techie.

 

Surely the problem was the man was not adult enough to say "I do not have any knowledge of this type of system we need someone else to give some help and advice" :breakfast:

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Guest LilBambi

It is sad when people make it out like this is the only thing that it could be because of their lack of foresight, knowledge and skills.

 

But it happens and hopefully they will learn over time. I sure hope so.

 

So I guess the real issue is that nobody's perfect.

Edited by LilBambi
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It's a common enough thing though. When you phone up the cable guy for support you should never mention you are running Linux as you'll get the usual "We don't support anything but Windows."

One of the problems with a company like Rogers Cable is they have all kinds of online security applications and diagnostic programs that only work on a Windows machine. Take that away and they can't fix stuff - especially if they want to have remote control of your system.

Fran is correct. It is better to admit you don't know how to fix something than to pontificate that what the client has doesn't work with your network. Admitting ignorance is always better than looking like a real dummy later.

Edited by raymac46
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Back from Jean's and I got the "press F1 to continue" boot problem fixed. The CMOS battery was dead - this caused the BIOS to default to trying to boot from a floppy disk - which the desktop does not have. After I replaced the battery I went into Setup and disabled the floppy disk and got the machine booting from the DVD-ROM and then the HDD.

After this I installed Linux Mint 17 and she's good to go. Had to reconfigure her printer and this caused me some grief before I realized I was using HPLIP to configure a FAX machine and not a printer. Works a lot better as a printer. So maybe I'm not as techy as I thought. :oops:

Edited by raymac46
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I know alot of people that study "computer science" here on Dominican Republic, no one knows anything about Linux, they do not even know how to do things on windows, or download torrents, etc.. it's a shame.

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V.T. Eric Layton

The Dominican Republic?

 

Ah! A beautiful country and the source of some of the finest Major League Baseball players to ever walk on the field, including one of my favorites... Carlos Peña. :yes:

 

Umm... Sorry. un8lYb7.gif

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Cluttermagnet

I learned to ask for help early on. I was trained in another field and therefore did not suffer from any illusions that I knew what I was doing when it comes to desktop OS's. All I knew from the old days was a little bit of programming in FORTRAN and BASIC, and we're mostly talking basic type stuff there. Fortunately, help is widely available online, in the finest tradition of the intent of the original internet. The newcomer not only gets great help, but as time passes, also learns how and where to research things and sometimes even figure out things for himself or herself. Yay! That's what I have always loved about the internet- the networking aspect- all the ad hoc help groups and discussion groups that spring up as the whole thing evolves.

 

A few of us, myself and Eric being two examples, know how to work at the detailed hardware (components) end of things. I'm quite sure there are others here at Scot's with similar backgrounds. My own career spans from the end of the vacuum tube era (early 1960's) through solid state electronics and on up through the beginnings of the surface mount components era. I know how to take a box of tiny leaded components and assemble (solder) them into various neat circuits which sometimes even work as intended. We folk tended to laugh at those brought up in the era of the PC, sometimes privately deriding them as little more than glorified 'card pullers' who really didn't much know what was going on inside those sophisticated circuit boards. But actually, many 'card pullers' are indeed sophisticated and do know a great deal about what is going on at a systems and software level. I have learned much from some of these folks. Trouble is, the 'Peter Principle' is alive and well, and sometimes these guys are posers and little more. Often these guys are in over their heads, and they can only fall back on bluff and bluster. Definitely sounds like the tech you encountered was one of these, Mac. "Pah!" indeed... ;)

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V.T. Eric Layton

Back in my youth, I found early on that the posers were easy to spot. Whenever I would ask a so-called expert about something to do with two-way radio or audio (my career specialties), often the response I would get would be something like, "You'll figure it out on your own eventually, kid." or "Well, it's a bit too complicated to explain easily." or my favorite "That's a trade secret, son." 99.99% of the time when I received responses like this from older "techs," they were later exposed to be fraudsters at worse or simple blow-hards tooting their own horns about their non-existent technical prowess.

 

I imagine this happens in any field.

 

The mentors I had in electronics, one I'll name here for sure -- Craig Jasper, were always as forthcoming and free with their extensive knowledge and experience that I could literally just sit an listen to them BS all day long. It was like being in class somewhere. I soaked it in for all it was worth. Craig taught me nearly everything I knew about RF Communications. His specialties became my specialties, eventually. Sadly, Craig passed away a few years back; just as my Linux mentor, Bruno did. I miss them both.

 

Umm... so, anyway...

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Guest LilBambi

I learned to ask for help early on. I was trained in another field and therefore did not suffer from any illusions that I knew what I was doing when it comes to desktop OS's. All I knew from the old days was a little bit of programming in FORTRAN and BASIC, and we're mostly talking basic type stuff there. Fortunately, help is widely available online, in the finest tradition of the intent of the original internet. The newcomer not only gets great help, but as time passes, also learns how and where to research things and sometimes even figure out things for himself or herself. Yay! That's what I have always loved about the internet- the networking aspect- all the ad hoc help groups and discussion groups that spring up as the whole thing evolves.

 

A few of us, myself and Eric being two examples, know how to work at the detailed hardware (components) end of things. I'm quite sure there are others here at Scot's with similar backgrounds. My own career spans from the end of the vacuum tube era (early 1960's) through solid state electronics and on up through the beginnings of the surface mount components era. I know how to take a box of tiny leaded components and assemble (solder) them into various neat circuits which sometimes even work as intended. We folk tended to laugh at those brought up in the era of the PC, sometimes privately deriding them as little more than glorified 'card pullers' who really didn't much know what was going on inside those sophisticated circuit boards. But actually, many 'card pullers' are indeed sophisticated and do know a great deal about what is going on at a systems and software level. I have learned much from some of these folks. Trouble is, the 'Peter Principle' is alive and well, and sometimes these guys are posers and little more. Often these guys are in over their heads, and they can only fall back on bluff and bluster. Definitely sounds like the tech you encountered was one of these, Mac. "Pah!" indeed... ;)

 

I learned diagnostics and troubleshooting from a great electronics technician, my Jim. ;) I am no where near Jim's capabilities/level when it comes to electronics (although I did put together a Heathkit Multi-meter myself and am a decent solderer), but when it comes to computers, Jim has said many times, "I pointed her in the right direction and she took off running" LOL!

 

Jim has no use for what he calls 'board swappers' either since he was a component level tech who knew well how to fix the boards himself. Some techs just don't have it in them I guess.

Edited by LilBambi
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I guess I'd have to classify myself as a "board swapper" when it comes to PCs. I have a minor degree in physics so I know basic electricity theory and the difference between a resistor and a capacitor, but I'm no electronics guru.

While I'd prefer to work on software problems, I realized early on that most PC glitches are or can be a combination of hardware and software issues. This "F1 problem" on Jean's machine involved both replacing a component and reprogramming the BIOS. And that was before installing the operating system. So a PC tech has to be able to do that much at least. As far as repair to circuit boards goes, I'll leave that to the experts. PC technology is pretty standard test and replace activity for me. And I'm not about to light myself up by fiddling inside a power supply. Not when a new one costs $40.

If I can keep old machines working and out of the landfill I'm ahead of the game. Not too bad for an old food scientist.

At least I don't try to snow anybody when I don't know the answer.

Edited by raymac46
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Guest LilBambi

I think Jim would consider all of us as board swappers when it comes to computers. Although in addition, he does do component level work with spluging capacitors as well. But, it's the norm to be a board swapper in computers, or a computer builder using boards which many of us also do. I built my first computer (using boards of my choosing in 1989-90).

 

I apologize if I made folks feel that I was referring to computers in the earlier posting about electronics. I was referring more to TVs, VCRs, radios, reel-to-reel players/recorders, etc. etc.

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...........The staff at the home tried for days to connect Jean's computer and finally brought in their resident techie. ......

"Resident" ?

Was this just a fellow (80-something) resident trying to help?

If he wasn't being paid, but was just some other retiree, with a little more experience than the average nurse's aide, give him a break.

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"Resident" was my term not theirs. I have no idea if the guy was a resident of the seniors' home or or not. From what Jean was saying I don't think he was.

Besides age should not be an issue - you either try to fix stuff honestly or you don't. I am in my late 60s and I don't go around telling people stuff if I don't know the answer.

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V.T. Eric Layton

Ah... Heathkit. Great memories. I only have one piece of Heathkit stuff left on my bench. I had many at one time. The last one is my Heathkit freq counter. I love that thing. :yes:

 

394234.jpg

 

It still works great. It's about 35 years old, I think.

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I seems to me that money has driven the "card changer" generation as much as lack of training. If it is cheaper to pop a card, rather than repair it...why not, it is a good business case. If I don't have to rebuild cards..then I can relax my training program and keep cost down there too...and from there rely on less personnel..another money saver. Now, if someone decides to repair the labor cost will sometimes will be more than replacement. Detailed level techs are becoming hard to find :ermm:

 

As for posers...I have found that some folks have become really dependent on looks/sound...especially in areas they are weak in...so if someone looks/sounds good they will believe they are a tech...or mechanic..and so on.

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Guest LilBambi

Ah... Heathkit. Great memories. I only have one piece of Heathkit stuff left on my bench. I had many at one time. The last one is my Heathkit freq counter. I love that thing. :yes:

 

394234.jpg

 

It still works great. It's about 35 years old, I think.

 

Jim too. :D That's how I got the Heathkit multi-meter kit. We saw it at a yard sale and I asked Jim about and when he told me it was from the same folks that made the kids he made for his bench, I snatched it up.

 

We went through soldering lesson before I felt comfortable doing it, but it works great.

 

I seems to me that money has driven the "card changer" generation as much as lack of training. If it is cheaper to pop a card, rather than repair it...why not, it is a good business case. If I don't have to rebuild cards..then I can relax my training program and keep cost down there too...and from there rely on less personnel..another money saver. Now, if someone decides to repair the labor cost will sometimes will be more than replacement. Detailed level techs are becoming hard to find :ermm:

 

As for posers...I have found that some folks have become really dependent on looks/sound...especially in areas they are weak in...so if someone looks/sounds good they will believe they are a tech...or mechanic..and so on.

 

In some cases that's very true Barry. Great to see you by the way. Been some time.

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I also come from the "repair" generation, as it's my nature to fix what's broken if I can. But BarryB is correct in that, sometimes, economics dictate that its often cheaper and quicker to just replace something. In today's world, things get repaired out of passion for a hobby, or an interesting challenge. The trick, as I see it, is to apply the formula and know the difference.

 

On the other hand, however, my children are part of the "replace" generation who will abandon a perfectly working piece of gear just because a newer version is available. Any of this sound familiar?

 

Child: There's a new 30GB iPod available now!

Me: That's nice, but you already have an 8GB ipod. What happened to that?

Child: Well, I have over 3GB of music on there, so it's getting full. I'm going to need a new one.

Me: It's taken you over 2 years to accumulate 3GB of music, so by my estimates, your current ipod should suit your needs for about another 5 years at your current pace.

Child: But...but....but....

Mother: Maybe that would be a good Christmas present?

Child: Yes, it would...okay!

Me: <shakes my head>

 

Despite my intentions, and my wishes, this is how they were raised; I have been rowing upstream their entire lives, and losing ground with every stroke. Sad...

 

When they were younger, and cared about good grades, I would often help with math & science homework...the bane of many child's existence. I remember having to memorize multiplication tables and being able to extend that into simple addition/subtraction/multiplication/division all being done in my head, as well as on paper. I also remember one junior high math teacher teaching us how to use an abacus, extending the math lesson into an application of historical commerce. I also remember being taught mathematical and algebraic concepts of communicative, associative, transitive properties, etc... and translation of word problems into mathematical formulas. Basic diagnosis and resolution skills. In my later high school years, satisfied that we were proficient in the basics and underlying logic algorithms, we were allowed to use calculators in order to solve more complex problems, i.e. integers and derivatives of calculus. The upshot of all this is that we were taught the underlying logic and skills...the calculator was just a tool to do it quicker!

 

Now, the calculator is "the way"! Through the process of helping my children with their math & science, it became apparent to me that the basics were either being glossed over or skipped altogether! When I tried to teach them the basics (showing them "how to fish" versus "feeding them a fish"), they actively resisted with lines such as "teacher doesn't do it this way" and other similar variations. I would respond with "then tell your teacher that your dad says they're wrong, and have them contact me about the right way." Interestingly enough, not a single teacher ever contacted me. So I made contact at parent-teacher night and asked questions, explained what I was doing; teacher explained having to teach to approved curriculum, but fully supported my efforts to teach "old school" background. Say it ain't so..."I have no problems if you want to do part of my job for me." Also interestingly enough, I watched the math grades rise to the A & B levels, and eventually they quit asking for tutoring. I figured they had gotten it, and had a good foundation to go. Then I watched the grades subsequently drop to the D level. When I questioned the children about this phenomenon, they responded with a shrug and a curt "D is passing...". And for a while, I tried to FORCE my tutoring, but they weren't receptive, they weren't listening, and they sure weren't applying. So I let them struggle, figuring that they would eventually fall to an F, which would necessitate taking that class again, or summer school. But in today's world, it seems you don't have to repeat classes you failed; you just receive no credit, but move on to the next one. You can make up the credit deficit with another easier class? WTH?!!! Classes are disposable; education is disposable; apparently everything is disposable?!

 

So what's the point of all this background? I admire those who know more than me, and sometimes I even want to know what you know! I especially admire those with deep expertise in ANY subject; I am in awe of your passion and the extents you go to scratch your intellectual itches. I wish I was able to bestow some of that on my kids...a passion for ANYTHING (except PlayStation!). I aspire to the day when they become "card changers", as that will be a step up from their current MO as "device replacers." I wish the failure was limited to my household, but I see the signs in their friends and I talk to the other parents. It's how this generation was/is being raised.

 

Do you wish you had invested in the next big thing before it was known? Microsoft or Apple in the mid 1980's? Ford in the 1910's? How about green tech/renewables/recyclables in the 2010's? The way the next generation disposes of everything as a "replaceable", we're eventually going to run out of viable resources to replace things. I'm thinking renew/recycle will become a NECESSITY, instead of an option. And that might be the best way to take care of ourselves in our old age, cuz I'm not sure I can trust my senile old self to tell my children what needs to be done to take care of my mentally fragile self in my old age. I'm gonna have to hire someone to do that! There goes the inheritance! Just a thought...

Edited by Hedon James
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I don't think a little 7 times table memorization ever hurt any kid but - we have to be careful not to idealize our own education versus what they do today. I learned to write in ink with a straight nib pen - how necessary is that in today's world? Log tables and slide rules were a great thing to know 50 years ago - not so much today.

I'm watching my 5 year old grandson learn to read and the combination of sight reading and phonics he's using don't seem all that much different to when I was doing it in 1952. Better books though.

 

2865a_zps9604daf9.jpg

Edited by raymac46
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I get what you're saying Ray and I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think I'm idealizing my education. I remember being taught slide rules and log tables, but only briefly, 'cuz we were also taught that there were newer & better tools available. I'm not advocating a return to slide rules & log tables, for instance, but kids SHOULD know what they are, what they evolved FROM, what they evolved TO, and WHY they evolved at all. Generally speaking, they're not learning the underlying fundamentals, they're just being taught what buttons to push and in what order. Rearrange the equation and they're LOST!

 

The underlying fundamentals are CRITICAL to the scientific problem-solving process. I learned to work an abacus in 7th or 8th grade to understand how the ancients like Pythagoras and Archimedes calculated their cool findings without a calculator, knowing that I would likely never need an abacus in real life. Ditto with slide rules and log tables. I could do it on paper, but they were tools to work faster, not to circumvent the logical process. And a calculator was golden. But then computers became available, and I realized that calculators were for old people, like slide rules and log tables...ha ha! Unfortunately, somewhere along the way, the tool has become the process...take away the tool and today's generation is lost. If you take away the tools from OUR generation, we'll still get the correct answer, it just takes longer. Of course there are exceptions to these stereotypes. Apologies in advance for anyone who may be offended by my general observations; I will readily acknowledge that general observations are not absolute truths applicable to all.

 

But today's generation...my kids...are idiots. If it's on the internet, it's the TRUTH! No need to figure anything out, 'cuz someone else will do that for us. Maybe that explains why Apple is so popular with their generation...Apple tells them what to do, when to do it, and how to do it; they charge a LOT more, but that's because it's better than all the others. I love 'em to death and wouldn't trade 'em for anything...but the only way they'll ever run this world is if we tell them how, or post it on the internet. Maybe that IS the plan? :ermm:

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V.T. Eric Layton

I seems to me that money has driven the "card changer" generation as much as lack of training.

 

Yes, you're right, of course, Barry. However, there's a downside...

 

At the risk of warping this thread into a economic/political conversation, I must state here that the advent of the card swapper in favor of the discrete component repair person led to the complete collapse of the technical service industry in the U.S. Why? Because of the same money you mention. Companies in the U.S. found it cheaper to not only ship their discrete work overseas, but also their card-swapping monkey labor. So, what's left here? Telephone customer and and general tech support.

 

Sorry. This is a pet peeve topic of mine due to the effects from this situation that I have personally experienced in the last decade and a half with regards to my personal career and financial situation.

 

So, back to topic...

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but the only way they'll ever run this world is if we tell them how, or post it on the internet.

 

Love this, we should all start getting ourselves set up as Internet experts on how to solve the world's problems. Then the kids of today will listen to our crazy ideas and try them out.

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Eric- It is a peeve of mine also, and a fear...I cannot see a good long term affect for us humans, we are not utilizing our doers, and the fully capable techs are well,frankly . we are getting older. It is not just in computers...Naval shipyards are having a heck of a time replacing an aging capable workforce...anyway......

Bambi-Yeah, still kicking about..just busy

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Guest LilBambi

VCRs are a thing of the past mostly except for those of us who still have functional ones.

 

And sadly when you can buy a DVD player for less than $50, and flatscreen TVs for as little as $299, charging for repairs just doesn't make sense to folks. Totally understand. when it breaks you can get newer tech for barely over the price to fix the old technology.

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