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Many Linux snobs push the Arch operating system as the greatest thing

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#51 OFFLINE   mhbell

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 12:12 PM

View Postsunrat, on 08 July 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:


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As far as Arch goes, I could Don't care less who uses it or why.
You realise that means exactly the opposite of what you meant it to mean? "could care less" means you care a significant amount. Don't worry, I've seen it written a lot lately.
There is that better. LoL!
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#52 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 02:39 PM

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

View Postabarbarian, on 08 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly. :breakfast:  
As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

"I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners."

Well I never ever said anything like that not here or anywhere else.  :breakfast:
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#53 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 03:49 PM

View Postabarbarian, on 09 July 2017 - 02:39 PM, said:

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 07:09 PM, said:

View Postabarbarian, on 08 July 2017 - 06:39 PM, said:

View Postmhbell, on 08 July 2017 - 03:50 PM, said:

This Thread is Getting Boring. guess I will pour Gasoline on the Fire.  I see this morning that Arch has slipped to Number 17 on distro watch. It must be starting to lose popularity. Let the Flames Begin.

Who gives a stuff. Arch works really well for me an that is all I care about. The ratings at Distro Watch are based on the number of folk looking at at a particular distros page a fact that Distro Watch are at pains to inform folk. So if a person decides to use a distro based on their rankings then good luck to them. I was fortunate enough to have been taught to use my brain and base my choices accordingly. :breakfast:  
As far as Arch goes, I could care less who uses it or why. I have tried or tested in over 20 years hundreds of flavors of linux as well as all versions of Windows, Dos DR-Dos, Os-2, Warp, MInix, Solarus, BSD, any many more. I think I've used my Brain. I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners.

"I think you or someone said it in a previous post that Arch was "by Developers for Developers". Arch is not for the majority of Users, especially Beginners."

Well I never ever said anything like that not here or anywhere else.  :breakfast:

I said that because of this quote from the Archwiki:

Quote

Whereas many GNU/Linux distributions attempt to be more user-friendly, Arch Linux has always been, and shall always remain user-centric. The distribution is intended to fill the needs of those contributing to it, rather than trying to appeal to as many users as possible. It is targeted at the proficient GNU/Linux user, or anyone with a do-it-yourself attitude who is willing to read the documentation, and solve their own problems.

https://wiki.archlin...User_centrality
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#54 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 04:05 PM

Granted I started using Archlinux when I was still a beginner and try to help anyone that asks but there is a reason that Archlinux is not geared towards new users
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#55 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 06:46 PM

Let's suppose for an instant you want to set up Linux on an older laptop. You are a new user but tech savvy enough to download an ISO and make a bootable DVD or USB drive and get your PC to boot it. What next?
  • MX-Linux - the ISO boots & wifi is available. You install and connect to the Internet.
  • Ubuntu and Mint - maybe wifi won't work. You plug in a wire and use the Driver Manager to get the wifi going after an install.
  • Debian - wifi won't work till you identify your chipset, get the right firmware installed. Maybe an Atheros chipset will work but don't count on it.
  • Arch - wifi might work but it's a lot easier with a wire. Install the basic system and configure it manually. Get the packages for a GUI, browser, whatever you need. Maybe you'll configure wifi via the command line or use a GUI like Network Manager.You'll need to be familiar with the details an installer script will do in other distros, plus a basic appreciation of how systemd works. Refer to the Arch Wiki for details.
So which distros are for new users, and which for advanced users? :teehee:
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#56 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:20 PM

First thought that came to my mind: What if you're a "new user" who doesn't necessarily want/need to use wifi? There are still some of us out there (yes, even here in the year 2017!) who don't.  :cool:

But, I guess that's besides the point...

#57 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 08:48 PM

View Postraymac46, on 09 July 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Let's suppose for an instant you want to set up Linux on an older laptop. You are a new user but tech savvy enough to download an ISO and make a bootable DVD or USB drive and get your PC to boot it. What next?
  • MX-Linux - the ISO boots & wifi is available. You install and connect to the Internet.
  • Ubuntu and Mint - maybe wifi won't work. You plug in a wire and use the Driver Manager to get the wifi going after an install.
  • Debian - wifi won't work till you identify your chipset, get the right firmware installed. Maybe an Atheros chipset will work but don't count on it.
  • Arch - wifi might work but it's a lot easier with a wire. Install the basic system and configure it manually. Get the packages for a GUI, browser, whatever you need. Maybe you'll configure wifi via the command line or use a GUI like Network Manager.You'll need to be familiar with the details an installer script will do in other distros, plus a basic appreciation of how systemd works. Refer to the Arch Wiki for details.
So which distros are for new users, and which for advanced users? :teehee:


Well I guess it would also depend on how much you like to customize your distro. If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff. And I do not mean being able to change the default DE/WM ;)
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#58 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 10:13 PM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 09 July 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff.

Yeah. I really like Ubuntu LTS, for example, but total setup time seems comparable to Debian Stable when I take into account all the time I spend with Ubuntu removing stuff and turning stuff off, etc.

MX is another great one, but I can install Debian Stable w/ Xfce, without all the extras that MX throws in there, and I can have it all done like maybe 6 months before MX releases its next Stable-based version.

Maybe not great options for someone new to Linux, but users don't remain "new to Linux" forever...

#59 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 July 2017 - 10:18 PM

View Postsaturnian, on 09 July 2017 - 10:13 PM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 09 July 2017 - 08:48 PM, said:

If you like to really like to tinker with your own OS, you may want to go with one that allows you to set it up how you like out the door versus removing and installing stuff.

Yeah. I really like Ubuntu LTS, for example, but total setup time seems comparable to Debian Stable when I take into account all the time I spend with Ubuntu removing stuff and turning stuff off, etc.

MX is another great one, but I can install Debian Stable w/ Xfce, without all the extras that MX throws in there, and I can have it all done like maybe 6 months before MX releases its next Stable-based version.

Maybe not great options for someone new to Linux, but users don't remain "new to Linux" forever...

Agreed
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#60 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:27 AM

View Postsaturnian, on 09 July 2017 - 08:20 PM, said:

First thought that came to my mind: What if you're a "new user" who doesn't necessarily want/need to use wifi? There are still some of us out there (yes, even here in the year 2017!) who don't.  :cool:

But, I guess that's besides the point...
Well in that case you are in luck - just about anything you want is going to work for you. But you are in the minority. I have desktops in my basement that I use wifi with to avoid a lot of cabling. Only one out of my units is wired in permanently.
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#61 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:35 AM

Nobody posting in this thread is what I would describe as a "new user" - that's for sure. I use Debian and Arch for all the reasons outlined above. But when I was new to Linux I preferred to go with the defaults just to get a working system. And as far as I am concerned MX-16 is as fast and easy to set up as anything out there right now. I would recommend it to any new user who wants to try an install on their own.
If I'm setting it up for the same new user I would go with a Linux Mint distro because they have a pretty standard look and feel similar to Windows 7 (assuming you choose Xfce or Cinnamon.)
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#62 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 08:49 AM

View Postraymac46, on 10 July 2017 - 07:27 AM, said:

Well in that case you are in luck - just about anything you want is going to work for you. But you are in the minority.

Yeah, I know. My son says I'm living in the dark ages. But going without wifi sure makes Linux installations a lot more hassle-free! That's one of the main reasons I do it. Plus, I don't really need wifi. Or maybe I've convinced myself that I don't. To each his own, though.

View Postraymac46, on 10 July 2017 - 07:35 AM, said:

And as far as I am concerned MX-16 is as fast and easy to set up as anything out there right now. I would recommend it to any new user who wants to try an install on their own.
If I'm setting it up for the same new user I would go with a Linux Mint distro because they have a pretty standard look and feel similar to Windows 7 (assuming you choose Xfce or Cinnamon.)

Those are two excellent choices for a new user, no doubt. I think that Ubuntu would also be a great option, assuming that the user can work with GNOME Shell (I took to that desktop rather quickly, and never cared much for the old GNOME, but others didn't/don't see it that way).


Getting back to the original post, I guess what I want to say is that I kinda felt that the comments about Arch in the opening paragraph of the article were mostly unnecessary (especially since the article was supposed to be touting Manjaro), and perhaps a bit unfair. But we see this sort of thing all the time in Linux. Knock that distro and its users to build up this distro and its users. What "I" use is always the best. That sort of thing.

We've got tons of great distros out there, lots of excellent choices, something for everyone. But we Linux users, seems like we always fall into this thing where we're dividing each other up with this tribalist stuff. Maybe it's human nature, but it's also quite tiring and pointless. [end rant]

#63 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:08 AM

Have to agree with Saturnian in that post above ^ (#62).  At some point, we were ALL drawn into Linux to acquire a freedom that addressed something that our "former OS" did poorly, or did not provide at all, because it turns out that "one size does NOT fit all!"  Even in Linux, this is true, but at least Linux tells us "distro X is pretty darn close to what you're looking for...feel free to modify it to your liking to get it exactly how you prefer."  And this is a major reason why we stay with Linux.  Even distro hoppers typically remain faithful to their distro of choice, only straying to strange new distros in order to discover something new to add to their nearly perfect distro.  Makes perfect sense to me.

What doesn't make any sense to me, whatsoever, is why a sizable segment of Linux users want to pare back the variety of choice to a more limited "chosen one" scenario.  We fled that OS model because we didn't like what was being forced on us, why would we force it on others?  I used to HATE....absolutely CHAFE....when I heard "distro Y sucks" or "distro Z is the best" comments, with no regard to anyone else's perspective.  Now I realize that not everyone is a good typer, and mostly likely just left off the phrase "...for me" in their haste to post.  So now I mentally add those two words to the end of their phrase and their statement makes a lot more sense.  :pirate: JMO...

#64 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:04 AM

I think we have to remember that there are varieties of new users when it comes to Linux. In my case I had close to 40 years of IT experience and was a Windows power user so it wasn't a big stretch to learn something new. I struggled a bit with wifi back in 2007 but hey...who didn't? It still took me time to have the confidence to try an "enthusiasts" distro though.
Some folks I introduced to Linux were barely literate with Windows or hadn't used a computer at all. That was a challenge for me to get the right setup for them - they coped quite well and didn't get hacked after I set them up. I didn't choose what was best for me necessarily. It's a matter of "know your client" after all.

Edited by raymac46, 10 July 2017 - 11:04 AM.

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#65 OFFLINE   abarbarian

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:05 AM

View Postsaturnian, on 10 July 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:


We've got tons of great distros out there, lots of excellent choices, something for everyone. But we Linux users, seems like we always fall into this thing where we're dividing each other up with this tribalist stuff. Maybe it's human nature, but it's also quite tiring and pointless. [end rant]

Definitely pointless and tiring. I always think that folk who make a habit of kicking distros other than their own are the sort of sad twats who enjoy pulling wings of flies.
A bit of gentle rib poking is ok in my book. :breakfast:
Install ARCH
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#66 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:10 AM

View Postmhbell, on 09 July 2017 - 12:12 PM, said:

View Postsunrat, on 08 July 2017 - 09:03 PM, said:

Quote

As far as Arch goes, I could Don't care less who uses it or why.
You realise that means exactly the opposite of what you meant it to mean? "could care less" means you care a significant amount. Don't worry, I've seen it written a lot lately.
There is that better. LoL!
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The proper form is "I couldn't care less"; meaning that you care pretty darn little already. :)

#67 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:18 AM

Well, back when I was a new user to Linux, I installed Ubuntu 6.06. The only thing easier at the time was MS Windows XP. ;)





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