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Why i do not think Linux will become a pc standard for the masses.


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#1 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 05:59 AM

Ever visit the LinuxQuestions.org ?
the abusive language of calling people with questions idiots, morons  and the replies that say RTFM when there is none and the other replies that just seem to be written to show off the supposed knowledge and how well they can try to humiliate instead of answering - these are the representative faces of the Linux community to would be noobies and the like.

I especially like one subject where whenever it comes up abuse is heaped upon the OP. With all sorts of platitudes and calling the OP a fool and saying that what the OP wants do wouldn't solve the problem and more. All without seeming to know that in the Windows to do what the OP asked is quite simple and effective :)   Haven't checked all the occasions but I have noticed that the OP is a "one and done" at least a few times.

If you are going to be as abusive as Linus you better be as correct is. And at that, has Linus ever leveled his vitriol at people asking questions about setting up Linux?
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#2 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 06:48 AM

Well in all actuality, Linux already owns most markets... servers, supercomputers, phones(android), smart appliances, etc., basically everything but the desktop market. The desktop was never really a long term goal for Linux in the first place. Everyone always jokes about "Year of the Linux desktop" but in the end, does it really even matter any? Most people use their computer as a gateway to the internet and as time goes by, more and more apps will simply be cloud based anyway.  Even Microsoft has pushed their office suite to the cloud. Who would of thought that you could run Microsoft natively on Linux via a web browser?

You used to still need windows for gaming but steam has mostly already taken care of that. Look at the amount of games for linux that I have available https://i.imgur.com/FdSpLyI.png

That said, I understand what you are referring to but that type of thing happens in the window's forums as well. Most people that use Windows are not in support forums but most people that try out Linux are in those types of places. People should be a lot more understanding towards new users but that will never change  due to human nature. You can go about it two ways..most of us here enjoy helping out new users as we were helped along our path but other people use their experience to feel "better" than others and mock them for not understanding something.

I have been seeing this in (windows and linux) forums for 20 years or more and I do not think it will ever change.
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#3 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 08:43 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 28 November 2017 - 06:48 AM, said:

That said, I understand what you are referring to but that type of thing happens in the window's forums as well.

Happens at online boards, generally. Go to read an online article, then check out the comments that follow. People write all kinds of rude things that they'd never say to someone in a face-to-face conversation.

#4 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 28 November 2017 - 12:43 PM

The serene haven we have here at Scot's has spoiled you folks. The Internet is a nasty place outside of here. Drop Scot an email sometime and show some love for what he's been providing for us here for many years now. :)

#5 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 08:02 AM

And we never forget Bruno and his benevolent influence on this site. He fostered the philosophy  that we are all  students here - no matter how expert you are, you can always learn something and pass it on when someone else needs help.
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#6 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 11:00 AM

I agree with everyone in this thread.  That nastiness being referenced in Linux forums, while true, isn't unique to Linux.  In fact, inasmuch as Linux represents 2%+/- of OS marketshare, I'll extrapolate that the nastiness on Linux forums also represents only 2%+/- of the OS forum nastiness.

I am SO APPRECIATIVE to have escaped from that environment and found this forum...one of the 2 main reasons I am here.  The 2nd reason is that I feel I am equal parts student and teacher on this forum, which is important to me.  I don't want to just help others, without advancing my own knowledge; and I sure don't want to always require assistance, without making a contribution.  This place is probably the perfect blend for me!  I didn't arrive until after Bruno was gone, but I've heard the stories and I've read some of the stickied posts he authored regarding conduct on this forum.  Although it's my loss that I never got to interact with him, I think he'd be very pleased (and proud?!) that many of you carry on his legacy in the manner he intended!  Thank you!

Lastly, circling back to the original theme of the OP statement, I tend to agree that Linux will not become a standard for the PC masses.  However, I disagree with the premise of why, as stated above.  I believe it will never become a standard due to the lack of widespread availability of pre-installed Linux OS on computer hardware OOTB.  There is a whole industry-wide eco-system that does NOT want this to happen, similar to the Pharmaceutical industry's business model of creating lifelong patients rather than cures.  The MS Windows OS degrades and frays over time, becoming more susceptible to vulnerabilities and slowing down at a steady pace.  This creates more frequent hardware purchases, which in turn creates more software purchasers, especially when the newer OS isn't backward compatible.  Can't put MS Office 2007 on a new Win10 machine, you've got to purchase Office 2017, at a price almost as much as the new hardware.  And even that level of greed isn't enough anymore....software vendors are moving away from "purchase" licenses, and are now moving to "rent" licenses, to generate revenues in perpetuity.  SMDH...

All of this revenue gathering is killing the PC industry.  Most folks just use their computers as internet gateways for web-surfing, to write letters/correspondence, and to check e-mail.  They can't afford (and it makes no sense) to upgrade that machine every few years (and all the software that performs those functions) especially when cellphones and tablets can do the same thing.  And with today's millenial generation, media CONSUMPTION has replaced PC  PRODUCTION as the primary function of personal computers, so portable devices make more sense (to them).  And Android/Linux IS the de facto standard for those devices.

The only thing remaining to be seen, IMO, is if the number of PC users (content producers) dwindle enough to make PCs "specialty tools".  And if that happens, will Linux become a viable OOTB option because those users prefer Linux.  Linux powers the internet, data storage, server farms, the world's fastest supercomputers, NASA computers, handheld devices/cellphones/tablets....it's ONLY the consumer desktop holding out.  I wonder for how long?  But even if/when that happens, it still won't be for the masses.

All of us here at BATL, we're just ahead of the curve....WAY ahead of the curve!  :w00t:

#7 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 11:48 AM

oh, trust me , Linux machines OS degrade over time as well. thinking about the pc's i've encountered and used, i've had to update major versions of Linux far more often than msWindows. In fact , main reason i've become a Debian preacher is due to the ease and reliability  of its major version in-place upgrades. BTW: At work I am still running a server with an RH5 OS. No , not RHEL5, the original RH5 from last century.

As for forums - i visit a lot of tech forums that are Windows-Centric, a fair amount of General-Tech and some Linux-Centric. When it comes to responding to people asking technical questions the Linux-Centric forums are far more vitriolic and unhelpful than the others. These are not forums run by Linux distro's but based on the ugliness at TechNet i expect the Distro' forums to be full of ugly trolls. (why people can't leave users of other OS or platforms alone is something i still can't understand.)

That being said, i find ScotsNewsletter to be unique. Mostly due, I think to the moderators being actively involved. I'd be surprised if i did not lead in having the most post taken down, but I can think of only one time when I thought the take down was not justifiable. Thurrott.com is the only other site I can think of that almost matches here, though even there an odd threat or two will  spawn ugliness.

Which reminds me, any thoughts on doing a one time fund raiser to create a rainy day fund? Maybe even just a tip jar?
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#8 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 12:19 PM

View Postcrp, on 29 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'd be surprised if i did not lead in having the most post taken down, but I can think of only one time when I thought the take down was not justifiable.

Which reminds me, any thoughts on doing a one time fund raiser to create a rainy day fund? Maybe even just a tip jar?

You are not even close to being the member with the most posts taken down or edited by staff. Trust me on this. ;)

About the donations/tips for Scot... while he doesn't actively update his blog or website much these days (he's a busy guy), he does still maintain a Donation Link on those sites. Anyone wanting to show some financially-based love or just contact Scot with a "Thanks, buddy!" occasionally, can do so using the links at his webpage:

http://scotsnewsletter.com/index.html

#9 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 12:31 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 29 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

View Postcrp, on 29 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'd be surprised if i did not lead in having the most post taken down, but I can think of only one time when I thought the take down was not justifiable.
You are not even close to being the member with the most posts taken down or edited by staff. Trust me on this. ;)
You have had more of your posts taken down than i have? :runaway:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#10 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 12:35 PM

Original comment here cut (and pasted in Remembering Bruno thread) due to it pulling this thread off-topic. ~Eric

View Postcrp, on 29 November 2017 - 12:31 PM, said:

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 29 November 2017 - 12:19 PM, said:

View Postcrp, on 29 November 2017 - 11:48 AM, said:

I'd be surprised if i did not lead in having the most post taken down, but I can think of only one time when I thought the take down was not justifiable.
You are not even close to being the member with the most posts taken down or edited by staff. Trust me on this. ;)
You have had more of your posts taken down than i have? :runaway:

I bet you're right on that. ;)

#11 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 06:43 PM

I agree with HJ that the lack of preinstalled Linux distros has been a major factor and I also agree that RTFM attitudes with new users are not helpful.
A third factor is that - for better or worse - the average person does NOT want to invest the time and effort to achieve even a modicum of computer literacy. At home they want email and Facebook - at work they have certain programs they must use to do their job and they never want to go beyond this. I remember when we switched from Windows 3.11 to Windows NT - it was the end of civilization as we knew it at Unilever. A lot of people don't know the difference between an O/S and a web browser.
So it would be a lot to get the average person to learn about hardware compatibility, installation, distro choice, DE vs Window Manager, CLI..and on and on.
Add to that the fact that nobody wants to believe that something you don't pay for, something that gives free software, something that you don't need a lot of security apps for - can be any good.
Linux has done well where other geeks take the geekiness away - Android, servers, routers.
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#12 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 29 November 2017 - 09:24 PM

View Postraymac46, on 29 November 2017 - 06:43 PM, said:

I agree with HJ that the lack of preinstalled Linux distros has been a major factor and I also agree that RTFM attitudes with new users are not helpful.
Especially when there is no manual, fine or otherwise.  :) :teehee:
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#13 ONLINE   sunrat

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 12:48 AM

I'd like to see stats on the number of people who move from PC/Mac to Linux compared to the other way. I imagine the balance would be heavily in Linux' favour.

Interestingly, I reckon Debian User Forums have become a bit more friendly lately whereas they used to be a minefield if you didn't ask smart questions. Just don't mention Kali! :)

Would the post deletion record belong to someone whose name begins with T?
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#14 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 08:21 AM

I have had a couple of "clients" go back to Windows (they got new hardware.) But they never learned anything about Linux - simply used it on an old PC I set up for them.
I think when you put in the time to learn how Linux works you'll stick with it. You might distro hop but you won't leave.
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#15 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:45 AM

View Postraymac46, on 30 November 2017 - 08:21 AM, said:

I have had a couple of "clients" go back to Windows (they got new hardware.) But they never learned anything about Linux - simply used it on an old PC I set up for them.
I think when you put in the time to learn how Linux works you'll stick with it. You might distro hop but you won't leave.

This is just more empirical evidence that the masses simply purchase what is readily available.  It's hard to fault those who don't know any better, or who lack the technical know-how to do something about it.  I had never even HEARD of linux until the mid to late 2000s.  But after yet another especially challenging troubleshooting session of Windows on my main business machine, I had had enough...the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  I thought about all the business machines in the world that ran the internet, provided online shopping, information services, etc... and realized there was NO WAY they could stay in business with the constantly-needing-attention Windows OS, unless they had 2 or 3 mirrored systems on standby, ready to switch over on a moment's notice; and I realized that probably wasn't practical either.  So I did some online googling (before it was called that?) and kept coming across the terms "Linux", "BSD", and "Unix".  I knew what Unix was, as that was the system we used in my first post-college job in the early 1990s.  Back then, it was terminal only on a green (sometimes orange) CRT monitor.  No thanks.

So I jumped into the wormhole of Linux and BSD research.  I soon zeroed in on Linux after learning that Steve Jobs/Apple had basically stolen BSD (even though they were allowed), made some changes and locked it down, calling it OS X and kept the changes private/proprietary.  Sounded like Windows to me, but with a much smaller userbase and a much higher entry price (more on that later).  The more I read about Linux, the more I was interested, and the more I didn't understand.  I started asking friends in IT about Linux.  Most could provide only basic information, but no one was truly familiar and certainly no one used it (I lived in a small rural south-central PA town in the mid-late 2000s).  I was on my own.

But I'm a persistent SOB, as my wife can attest, and I eventually developed a fuzzy focus of the Linux landscape, distros, RPMs vs. DEBs vs Source; and I learned how to burn LiveCDs to "try before you buy", and eventually learning how to partition my disk and dual boot!  Game on!  Circa mid to late 2009 is when I officially installed Linux (Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic Koala) on an old, decrepit and retired Dell Dimension desktop (think 2400 series!).  Linux ran better on that old machine than OEM WinXP and the race was on for a proof of concept.  After experimenting with numerous software titles to replace my Windows counterparts, I finally settled on a combination of software components that duplicated my Windows functionality, but without the frequent crashing.  As an added bonus, I learned that on the rare occasions that a Linux program crashed, it usually just froze in place, rather than taking down my whole system!  What a novel concept?!  I became familiar with "xkill" and I felt I had accomplished my original mission.

To this day, still learning new and cool stuff.  Sometimes to increase productivity, sometimes to expand the sphere of knowledge, sometimes just for the sake of knowledge.  I only wish that I had learned about Linux sooner, and that I had a real-world go-to Linux mentor to accelerate the curve.  On the other hand, I can't really complain.  Getting back to the BSD comment above...at least I didn't solve the problem by spending about $1500 for $500 of hardware and a $30 OS (I'm looking squarely at you, Apple) with the idea that "it's worth it".  To each his own, I guess, but I believe the "i" in Apple product names is an internal corporate euphemism for "idiot".  JMO...

#16 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:28 AM

View Postsunrat, on 30 November 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:


Would the post deletion record belong to someone whose name begins with T?

There's no record-keeping on that per se. As far as "T" goes, haven't a clue who that might be referring to.

#17 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 11:35 AM

I didn't have a business case to get me into Linux - just an old Windows Me machine I didn't want to pay to upgrade. I came here (thanks to Sue D.) after a kind fellow at a local shop gave me a copy of Ubuntu 5.10 on a CD. I got lots of handholding and encouragement to learn more. The machine I fixed up was a Dell Dimension 4100 - about as nice a Linux candidate as you could have.
I have a 50 year computer experience trajectory so I was an OK learner. The major problem I solved was how to do wifi with the early Linux distros using WPA. I learned early on the benefits of Atheros wifi chips.
Otherwise pretty smooth sailing. I built a Linux only desktop, repurposed a number of machines (desktops and laptops,) and even learned about VirtualBox. Not bad for an old codger who's just jamming with computers these days.
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#18 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 10:21 PM

I also don't really have a problem with Apple stuff. If you don't know what you're doing and have lots of spare cash an Apple system might be the answer for you. In my case I get better results by repurposing an old PC or building a new one and using Linux.
The only thing I don't like about Apple is that a lot of times an old Apple system won't have the drivers to work with (say) a new printer - and there's no way to upgrade. Or old Apple software is incompatible with new Apple hardware - and you can't upgrade. My neighbor's had that problem more than once.
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#19 OFFLINE   crp

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:04 AM

I try to get Linux used for servers due to one major item - Linux distros rarely require a reboot to install patches. For some reason MSFT just refuses to allow their OS to run all the time and be patched up.

(ps: I'm a stickler for keeping servers running. My favorite server OS to have used is still NetWare 2.12 , I miss the days of "we never had a hurricane hit before" . version 3.11 was a very close second.)
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. ~C. S. Lewis

#20 ONLINE   sunrat

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 08:09 AM

View Postraymac46, on 30 November 2017 - 10:21 PM, said:

I also don't really have a problem with Apple stuff.
I'm ambivalent. Hardware is way too expensive so you're paying for the software and Apple ecosystem. They are dropping the ball on usability for pros recently with trying to make everything smaller thereby cutting in/out ports. The number of adapters one needs is staggering. No more Firewire has alienated a lot of pro audio users I know who own expensive high-end Firewire interfaces. And reliability has plummeted judging by the number of people I know who have had to have repairs done lately.
I've had a couple of experiences lately. One last week where I visited some friends working for a band at a show soundcheck. They were using 2 older Mac Pros with 2 MOTU 828s which are high end Firewire interfaces as a dual redundant setup with a Novation Launchpad
controller running Ableton Live. The Macs would intermittently fail to see the Launchpad and it dropped out during the soundcheck.
The other instance was a sound engineer I was working with just got his newer Macbook Pro back from repair ($800 worth covered by Apple Care). He tried to charge his phone and it wouldn't work. Then plugged in an external USB drive and it fried the device letting out the magic smoke. He said his life was on the HD but it was backups so hopefully didn't lose much. This would happen if the USB/Thunderbolt was wired incorrectly and power was sent to the data pins.
Both these events reaffirmed my lack of faith in Apple.
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#21 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 09:02 AM

That and they are horribly unethical towards their customers....
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#22 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 11:01 AM

To be fair to Apple, they make nice products (at least in the past...can't speak to now, as I've gotten most of my circle to understand the benefits of open-ecosystem hardware).  I have no problem with their products.  But I HATE that their products try to lock you into their ecosystem, in perpetuity, and that they charge a ridiculous premium to do it.  Ever specced out an Apple machine?  It's about $500-$600 worth of hardware (laptops), even less for Mac Minis.  And the OS is $29.99.  Yet it retails for triple that sum.

Even worse, once you come to your senses and try to escape their ecosystem, it becomes prohibitively difficult to liberate your data/media from their proprietary clutches.  If Apple was truly "worth it", why do they "lock you in" to their walled garden?  I know folks who'd like to switch out of the Apple ecosystem, but don't want to lose all the music, videos, etc... that they've purchased and accumulated over the years.  Microsoft could learn a few things from Apple about THAT level of vendor lock-in.  MS are amateurs.

With that said, Apple certainly makes sense for folks who just don't care, and don't care to learn.  My mother-in-law got so frustrated with Windows that she decided to replace it with "something else".  As the family's de facto tech adviser (lucky me!), she wanted to know WHAT to do.  My sister-in-law is always pushing the wonders of Apple products (she is one of those folks who believe the hype that Apple is "worth it", but can't really afford it) and the MIL wanted to know what I thought of that.  The MIL also knew I used something "other than Windows" on my machines.  I went through the pros and cons of Linux, and the pros and cons of Apple, including prices, tech support, and data lock-in.  To her, the tech support provided by Apple Geniuses offset the higher cost of an Apple machine, especially if she went with the Apple Mini, which took up less space and allowed her to keep & re-use all her existing peripherals, i.e. monitor, printer, backup drive, etc...  At that point the main consideration was the data, music, videos, etc...  She understood the lock-in concept and didn't like it one bit....actually seemed horrified...questioning whether it was legal for Apple to do that!  But ultimately, her conclusion was that "I'm ___ years old.  Being locked in for life is probably only 10-15 years if I'm lucky.  I want this to be the last computer I have to buy and I don't want to be bothered with computer issues."

She chose Apple, purchasing a Mac Mini, iPad, and iPhone (making her iPod obsolete).  Based on HER criteria, I honestly think she made the right choice for her.  JMO...

#23 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 02:47 PM

I've never had anything to do with anything Apple; mostly because it's too overpriced and I don't need any of it.

#24 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 03:53 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 01 December 2017 - 02:47 PM, said:

I've never had anything to do with anything Apple; mostly because it's too overpriced and I don't need any of it.

Same here :)
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#25 OFFLINE   Hedon James

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Posted 01 December 2017 - 05:35 PM

In my house, we call them "Crapple" products!  :devil:




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