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Why i do not think Linux will become a pc standard for the masses.


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#51 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 10:27 AM

View Postraymac46, on 30 December 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

I have some experience with pre-installed Linux on netbooks - these were made around 2008/9.
  • Acer - great Linux hardware, bad distro.
  • Dell - bad Linux hardware, bad distro.

Which distros did those ship with? Just curious...

By the way, I don't think that Linspire and Xandros on my two Linux preinstalled machines were all that great, either. Well, Xandros might have been better than I'm remembering, but I didn't use it for very long before installing something else over it. But what struck me (especially about Linspire) was that they were both trouble-free for me, compared to my Windows XP system. I think that was the most eye-opening thing.

#52 OFFLINE   Peachy

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 06:46 PM

Dell has a nice Developer Edition laptop that has Ubuntu 16.04 LTS pre-installed. https://thenextweb.c...le-workstation/

They have a less expensive XPS 13 laptop with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed.

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#53 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 08:06 PM

View PostPeachy, on 31 December 2017 - 06:46 PM, said:

Dell has a nice Developer Edition laptop that has Ubuntu 16.04 LTS pre-installed. https://thenextweb.c...le-workstation/

They have a less expensive XPS 13 laptop with Ubuntu 14.04 pre-installed.

Yeah the XPS is an amazing line. I would love to have an XPS DE but they cost a fortune.
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#54 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:10 PM

View Postsaturnian, on 31 December 2017 - 10:27 AM, said:

View Postraymac46, on 30 December 2017 - 09:19 AM, said:

I have some experience with pre-installed Linux on netbooks - these were made around 2008/9.
  • Acer - great Linux hardware, bad distro.
  • Dell - bad Linux hardware, bad distro.

Which distros did those ship with? Just curious...

By the way, I don't think that Linspire and Xandros on my two Linux preinstalled machines were all that great, either. Well, Xandros might have been better than I'm remembering, but I didn't use it for very long before installing something else over it. But what struck me (especially about Linspire) was that they were both trouble-free for me, compared to my Windows XP system. I think that was the most eye-opening thing.
Acer: Linpus Lite. If you tried really hard you could identify it as some sort of Xfce desktop but it had the worst interface I have ever seen. Replaced with Ubuntu Netbook edition and many other distros after that.
Dell: Customized version of Ubuntu 8.04 - bad looking desktop that didn't resemble anything useful and because of the really poor Linux unfriendly graphics could not be upgraded to Ubuntu 9 or anything else. It took years for Intel to come up with anything that gave the native resolution and even then it was only a 2D graphics solution. Also Broadcom wifi that really sucked. Ask HJ what he thinks of Intel Poulsbo graphics for Linux.
Having seen how good Linux could be when I installed it myself on the right hardware, I thought both these OEMs did a rotten job. Put me totally off the idea of getting a decent Linux machine from any maker.

Edited by raymac46, 31 December 2017 - 09:20 PM.

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#55 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 11:20 PM

View PostHedon James, on 29 December 2017 - 09:16 PM, said:

Maybe I'm just crazy (nice word for paranoid?), but am I the only linux desktop user who doesn't even want linux to become a "pc standard for the masses"?  I'd like to see it grab a market share that's competitive with OSX....large enough to no longer be ignored, or brushed aside...but not large enough to be a viable target for hackers, phishers, scammers, and the like.  Somewhere around +/- 10% seems like a sweet spot to me.  JMO...

I'm with you here, also. :)

#56 OFFLINE   Temmu

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 12:37 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 30 November 2017 - 11:28 AM, said:

View Postsunrat, on 30 November 2017 - 12:48 AM, said:

Would the post deletion record belong to someone whose name begins with T?
There's no record-keeping on that per se. As far as "T" goes, haven't a clue who that might be referring to.

hmm... wonder who that would be?



View PostPeachy, on 28 December 2017 - 12:02 AM, said:

...Ubuntu claims there are over one billion Ubuntu installs...

as you say, servers?
java says it is installed on 3 billion devices!

all that is sadly laughable when 3 billion folks starve & have no clean water, much less clothes, shelter, telephony, much less electricity
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#57 OFFLINE   goretsky

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 03:04 AM

Hello,

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky
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#58 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 06:30 AM

View Postgoretsky, on 02 January 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

Hello,

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Nice, thanks.
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#59 OFFLINE   goretsky

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:34 AM

Hello,

He's very amenable to questions, updates and suggestions, in case you have any.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky


View Postsecuritybreach, on 02 January 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

View Postgoretsky, on 02 January 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

Hello,

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Nice, thanks.

Dexter is a good dog.

Aryeh Goretsky
Microsoft MVP 2004.1-2018.6 [Cloud and Datacenter Management]

(previously Networking, Windows, Windows for Devices and IT)
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#60 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 03 January 2018 - 08:56 AM

View Postgoretsky, on 03 January 2018 - 08:34 AM, said:

Hello,

He's very amenable to questions, updates and suggestions, in case you have any.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky


View Postsecuritybreach, on 02 January 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

View Postgoretsky, on 02 January 2018 - 03:04 AM, said:

Hello,

One of my colleagues has created a series of HOWTO articles for doing various things in Linux:

http://cheatsheet.logicalwebhost.com/

It may be a little ISP-centric, as he runs one of those on the side.

Perhaps it will be of use/reference to some of you.

Regards,

Aryeh Goretsky

Nice, thanks.

Well I am familar with 95% of that but thanks :)
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#61 OFFLINE   Peachy

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 06:33 PM

I was reading a prediction that we may see a developer shift from Windows and MacOS to Linux because of Canonical's shift to GNOME in the upcoming Ubuntu 18.04 LTS. I find that rather optimistic but you never can tell. The argument being that GNOME has won the Linux window manager, hence desktop war, and KDE is doomed.

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#62 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:55 PM

Was this the article?
https://www.theregis...rds_accessible/

Much as I enjoy using the GNOME desktop I think it is a bit premature to call this moment the end of Linux history. KDE is still the default desktop in many distros and Xfce and Cinnamon are out there too.
That said I can't deny that if you install Debian Fedora or Ubuntu you'll get GNOME as your default choice. Pretty significant.
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#63 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:03 PM

I cried all my tears for KDE when 4.x came out.

#64 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:09 PM

View PostV.T. Eric Layton, on 08 January 2018 - 10:03 PM, said:

I cried all my tears for KDE when 4.x came out.

Yeah, I felt the same when Gnome 3.x came out.They are always removing things and making it almost impossible to configure It seems like the gnome devs consider their userbase to be complete morons who should only be able to change the wallpaper. You cannot even minimize a window without a third party extension (gnome-tweak tool). Glad that I stopped using Gnome back in the 2.x days.

Heck Windows is more configurable than Gnome is and that is saying a lot...

I am glad that I use i3 where things are sane..
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#65 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:59 PM

Yeah, my Gnome days ended at 3 also.

I've been a happy Xfce-er ever since. :)

#66 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:01 PM

Nice :thumbsup:

I wasn't trying to hate on those who enjoy Gnome but I honestly think that the devs are trying their best to prevent any customization at all. IMO, this is a very bad thing to do especially considering how customizeable Gnome was at one time.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#67 OFFLINE   V.T. Eric Layton

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 12:14 PM

Yes, that's why I loved Gnome and pre-4.x KDE. I used to love to tweak and customize. I've gotten lazy in my old age, though. Nowadays, I'm just happy if something works. You'll get there. ;)

#68 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:54 PM

I was a converted Gnomie back in the 2.X days but then got turned off by GNOME 3. I switched to Cinnamon as my main driver but I also use Xfce.
I came back to GNOME when I started dabbling in Debian and I have found you can customize it enough to suit me with the Gnome Tweak Tool and Gnome Shell Extensions. Mind you I am not the most demanding tweaker out there.
As for KDE I really think they have got a nice desktop with the new Plasma version. Mageia (old Mandriva fork) has a particularly nice implementation of KDE Plasma.
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#69 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 05:28 PM

View Postraymac46, on 09 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

I came back to GNOME when I started dabbling in Debian and I have found you can customize it enough to suit me with the Gnome Tweak Tool and Gnome Shell Extensions. Mind you I am not the most demanding tweaker out there.

That was my point, it's a shame that you have to use third party tools just to achieve functionality. It also doesn't help that most all extensions break when a new release comes out. It also seems like the Gnome Devs prevent backward compatiblity on purpose for extensions.
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"Do you begin to see, then, what kind of world we are creating? It is the exact opposite of the stupid hedonistic Utopias that the old reformers imagined. A world of fear and treachery and torment, a world of trampling and being trampled upon, a world which will grow not less but more merciless as it refines itself. Progress in our world will be progress toward more pain." -George Orwell, 1984

#70 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 06:54 PM

I'm one of the oddballs who didn't care all that much for GNOME 2, but took to GNOME 3/GNOME Shell almost right away, and manages to be productive using GNOME Shell without any extensions! GNOME Tweak Tool and donf-editor are essential tools, though, in my opinion.

I enjoy customizing and tweaking the desktop (especially Openbox!) so I don't know why I don't dislike GNOME 3. I guess each DE or WM has its pros and cons. I like having several different kinds of desktop setups available to log into. Not sure how I'd feel if I ever wanted to choose just one! But I don't have to (choose just one).

Edited by saturnian, 09 January 2018 - 06:55 PM.


#71 OFFLINE   raymac46

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 09:52 PM

As a general rule I just roll with the default desktop for any distro I choose to run. The exception is Arch which doesn't really have a default desktop - I use Xfce there because it is lightweight and my Arch laptop isn't a burner. With Debian I have GNOME, Linux Mint Cinnamon, and with MX-17 it's Xfce.
I find that the applications that come with a distro usually work well with the default desktop. I prefer the GTK type of applications so that means that GNOME, Cinnamon and Xfce are fine with me. As I said I am not really a tweaker. Never have been - aside from some themes and icons.
The GNOME 2.X lovers can always use MATE - fairly light, a dead ringer for GNOME 2.X, and both Ubuntu and Mint have fine implementations. I haven't felt the need to do that though.
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#72 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 02:02 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 08 January 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

You cannot even minimize a window without a third party extension (gnome-tweak tool).

I don't understand this part. Why is gnome-tweak-tool considered to be a "third-party extension" when the package is right there in (for example) the Debian repos? And because it's in the repos, I don't understand why it isn't included by default when GNOME is installed. dconf-editor as well -- I think (can't quite remember) that I had to add that to my Stretch GNOME installation, too. It seems that both are necessary for any GNOME Shell fine-tuning. Are not gnome-tweak-tool and dconf-editor part of the overall GNOME Shell project? And if not... Why not?

https://wiki.gnome.o.../GnomeTweakTool
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/dconf

#73 OFFLINE   securitybreach

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 06:45 AM

View Postsaturnian, on 10 January 2018 - 02:02 AM, said:

View Postsecuritybreach, on 08 January 2018 - 10:09 PM, said:

You cannot even minimize a window without a third party extension (gnome-tweak tool).

I don't understand this part. Why is gnome-tweak-tool considered to be a "third-party extension" when the package is right there in (for example) the Debian repos? And because it's in the repos, I don't understand why it isn't included by default when GNOME is installed. dconf-editor as well -- I think (can't quite remember) that I had to add that to my Stretch GNOME installation, too. It seems that both are necessary for any GNOME Shell fine-tuning. Are not gnome-tweak-tool and dconf-editor part of the overall GNOME Shell project? And if not... Why not?

https://wiki.gnome.o.../GnomeTweakTool
https://wiki.gnome.org/Projects/dconf

Well as pointed out here, Extensions are third party tools for gnome: https://itsfoss.com/...ell-extensions/

Gnome-tweak-tool is an extension, so that would make it a third party tool. If it was built into Gnome, then it would be a part of Gnome and not third party. Just because it is in the repos doesn't make it an offical part of Gnome.
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#74 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 08:53 AM

View Postsecuritybreach, on 10 January 2018 - 06:45 AM, said:

Well as pointed out here, Extensions are third party tools for gnome: https://itsfoss.com/...ell-extensions/

Gnome-tweak-tool is an extension, so that would make it a third party tool. If it was built into Gnome, then it would be a part of Gnome and not third party. Just because it is in the repos doesn't make it an offical part of Gnome.

From within GNOME, I can go to https://extensions.gnome.org/local/ to view the installed extensions on my Stretch GNOME system. gnome-tweak-tool is not listed as one of the installed extensions, even though I do have gnome-tweak-tool installed. Same with dconf-editor. So I question calling either one of those tools an "extension." I also question calling either tool "third-party" because it appears that they are put out there by the GNOME dev team. That's why I wonder why they aren't included by default. We would consider dconf-editor to be an "official" part of GNOME, even though I did in fact have to install it myself (checked my installation notes), right? Same with gnome-tweak-tool, I'm thinking.

#75 OFFLINE   saturnian

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:24 AM

Either way you look at it, this sort of thing is what I don't like about GNOME. Tools like gnome-tweak-tool and dconf-editor should be right there in the Settings module, by default. They are two of the first apps I add to a GNOME installation, just like some years back when I used to add gconf-editor. The focus is so much on keeping things simple for the user that they don't even make it easy to get to these essential tools for fine-tuning GNOME Shell.

I don't understand this thinking, and I don't think it really started with GNOME 3. There were other things that you couldn't find in GNOME 2 (like a  nice, automated wallpaper changer!).

Anyway, no big deal; with any DE or WM, there are pros and cons. I have no problem with adding non-native apps to any DE, and of course my Openbox setups can include packages from any DE, along with packages that aren't part of any particular DE. The important thing, to me, is: Can I use it to get things done? And it doesn't have to be set up for me to get things done the way I've always gotten things done in the past. In that sense, I'm okay with GNOME Shell, just like I'm okay with KDE Plasma, and Cinnamon, and so forth. Or, for example, I don't care much for tiling window managers, but I've used AwesomeWM and some others, and I think that if I spent time with something like i3 I'd get along just fine with it.

I won't go back to using only one type of desktop setup, though. That's what I had in Windows XP! For me, one of the advantages of using Linux instead Windows or macOS is all of the choices in DEs and WMs, etc.

My favorites are Xfce and Openbox (hard to say which one of those I like most), but I like to have at least one installation with GNOME, one with KDE, one with LXDE. I keep Fluxbox installed, too. Yet I'm using GNOME Shell in Stretch on what I call my "primary" computer.

In other words, I'm all mixed up! Can't stick to any one thing, ha-ha!




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